Basement System Design

[Bioritize]

Hey Guys,

I am back again with my third system in my new place in CO. This system needs to be modular so that if we have to move I can move this thing. I have decided to get 5-6 IBC totes from a source in Denver. My questions are about the plumbing and possible creation or placement of a sump tank or filter system that I could get solids out of the system with.

I plan to have two pumps one in each set of three, using danner 700 magdrive pumpshttp://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_043V004248983000P?sid=KDx20070926x00 003a&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=043V004248983000. Should I combine all the tanks at the bottom? What do you think of setting the grow beds directly on top of the fish tanks?

I will make a bell siphon for each grow bed, yea a slight pain but more 02.

http://i.imgur.com/5MyUy.jpg (http://imgur.com/5MyUy)

Any feed back appreciated.

[Bioritize]

What do you guys do about moisture build up in the basements? Has anyone used this type of configuration with these IBC's?

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Bioritize, I don't know 'if' you already did your building...? Looks like it might be hard to get to the fish when it's time to eat some.

Do a search for a free PDF called IBC's of Aquaponics. It has about 20 some different set ups, other folks have done, using IBCs. Lots of good info and ideas... :)

As far as the humidity....I remember how dry the air was in the winter, where it snows. A dehumidifier uses a good bit of electric...too bad you couldn't exhaust it 'upstairs' somehow....?

[Oliver]

This is not in answer to your question, but in looking at your design the first question that comes to mind is; how are you going to get the fish out of the tanks?

My first design was a similar grow beds over fish tanks with more room between the two than it appears you have there. Netting the fish could only be accomplished by draining the fish tank of most of its water. My later designs moved the beds off center from the tanks in order to have better access to and light for the fish.

As you probably know, I am an advocate of leaving in the fish solids and mineralizing them to provide the plants with extra nutrients.

What is the purpose of the blue barrels you have in the drawing?

I do like the idea of the interconnects between the fish tank bottoms in order to keep them in balance. You will need some strainers in the fish tanks to keep the babies from swimming through the pipes into adjacent tanks.

You might want to bus together the water pumps using a check valve on each pump in order to have total system pump redundancy. That way you can turn off some of the pumps or rotate their timing and thereby reduce the amount of electricity used while still having ample pressure by using larger pumps. This will allow you to pump from each fish tank and help keep the solids in motion but not have to run every fish tank water pump continuously. This will also cause the water to flow in different directions through the bottom interconnects and help clean the strainers.

I'm not sure what the cycle should be as you don't want to leave any individual pump off too long and allow solids to accumulate in that tank, yet cycling the pumps too often is not that good for the pumps either. Maybe turn each pump off for a couple of hours, turning off one pump and another on as you rotate through the them. Always have at least two pumps running so as not to have all pumps off during the rotation.

Use the extra pumping power to jet back some water into the fish tanks. This is helpful in aerating and circulating the water and is an aeration backup in case one of your air pumps goes out for a particular fish tank.

Use separate air pumps in each fish tank. If it is located below the water level of the fish tank, you should also use check valves to keep water from back flowing into an air pump if it gets turned off due to a power failure etc. Not to do so will end the pumps life next time it gets turned on. Unfortunately, I have experience in this as I lost a one hour old rather expensive air pump when I forgot to put in a check valve. I turned it off for a few minutes, saw that the line had water in it and thought I would blow it out by turning on the pump. The pump had filled with water and it burned out as soon as I plugged it in. You can also bus together your air pumps for the same kind of redundancy as the water pumps, as long as you use check valves on every air pump.

Considering your low grow bed to fish tank volume ratio, I assume you are making this a low density system when it comes to the fish to gallons ratio. I find myself leaning that way more and more.

What program did you use to create the drawing, as it looks nice?

What kind of grow lights are you planning on using?

I'll stop typing now.

Oliver

[Bioritize]

Thanks David, I will read that pdf it looks awesome.

Oliver,

I planned to use the blue barrels as a swirl filter to get solids in which I would sell and use on my other plants as fertilizer.

I used Google sketchup to create the design, it is a free download and fairly easy to learn.

I have a 1000 watt MH I was going to use over the 4 tanks and I plan to get a 400 watt flourescent light for the other area.

I intended to add more growbeds in the future, I am going to try and build a couple plywood tanks, either lined with pond liner or fiberglass or even roll on rubber (if it is not toxic).

The whole thing has to fit through a 32" door so I am forced to cut the IBC's in this way. I may change this design after reading the pdf.

I like idea of putting the pumps together using a header I will try that. This current drawing has two returns one to each of the fish tanks. I am not sure if this would be necessary.

Getting the fish out would be a problem. I may rethink this a bit.

[foodchain]

Depends a lot on what you want to grow. I grow strawberries in gutters. Some swear it's too shallow a container for the media. But it seems to work for me, only drawback I see is high evaporation. But I am in TX...what doesn't evap quickly?

Consider running gutters or something down the walls, you can cut these to lengths that will clear the doorway, and still get you your access to the fish for netting. Draining water out of tank always makes eaiser to net.
OR use the traditional 1/2 blue barrel as the growbed. Cut lengthwise and frame to the back of the IBC against the wall. This allows room for fish access, and deeper beds.

IF you terrace your IBC's, you can run it as a cascade system. This will have gravity doing some of the work of your pump. Then you simply have to have one pump to move water to the highest point, and let it trickle down through the different systems. This is how many fish stores, fish farms etc do their indoor stuff. And how I started playing in polycultures.

Different tanks on same system will allow you to run different species within the same water....nice applications here. Escpecially if you can keep it warm down there.
Nylon window screen works fine as screening between tanks, or use the craft mesh from Joann's, hobby lobby, etc.

I am rebuilding my operation, and am designing something similar but bigger. And not in a basement. I don't want the bill for the lighting...one of the many reasons I got out of reefing.

Best advice I have, go up first then out...use gravity to do your pumping as much as possible. I agree that leaving the solids in, is better for your system balance in long run, so long as you have a lot of growbeds, and therefore bacteria.

[keith_r]

you'll be hard pressed to reach the back of the growbeds along that wall to the left as well..
i've got my ibc's in place in my basement.. they're bigger than you think..
with all those IBC's, i'd set a couple up as ft's that overflow into the gb's, that drain into a couple more "cut down" ibcs linked as a sump
my basement has a pretty low ceiling, just over 6' clearance where my gb's are going, so i'm overflowing my ft (an 8' kiddie pool) into a cut down IBC sump, where i'll pump up to my gb's which drain back to the ft - i'm going out the side of the IBC gb to keep the drain high enough to flow back into the ft
you could throw a few crayfish into the sump for extra cleanup duty

[foodchain]

All of your return lines are connected with no ball valves/gait valves. What keeps the water from filling up the first IBC, and not the rest?

[davidstcldfl]

Bioritize, I've looked at the sketch again and re-read what you have written ....I'm not trying to bad mouth you or your drawing...I wish I could do sketches that well (or at all)... :) But I'm seeing some differance between the two....and it may be confusing me (us).

The pipes in the upper 1/2 of the sketch makes it look like 'each tank' has a pump tied to a common header feeding a group of 3 tanks.
Sounds like Oliver 'may have been' thinking that too.
But you wrote you were using 2 danners, one in each set of 3 FT's

and Foodchain 'may be' thinking the 'same pipes' are your returns.
I saw you wrote, that you will be using bell siphons....we wouldn' see the drain pipes going into the FT's, but we 'should' see the tops of the bells in the beds.

The pipe in the lower part of the sketch, has all 6 Ft's tied together by their drains. But you wrote, that they would be tied together in set's of 3.


I'm not sure if the IBC's cage would 'safely' support the weight of the grow bed above...?
Speaking of support...PLEASE, don't stack your concrete blocks like shown in the sketch. I've seen lots of photos of folks doing that, and I cringe every time. The block loses a lot of it's ability to support a load, when place on it's side and even more so, when stood upon an end... :(

I liked foodchain's idea of cascading the fish tanks....that would add some 'free' DO.

Looking forward to hearing how, your actually going to do your set up and see some pictures :)

[Bioritize]

Hey David,

Glad you are paying attention.

On the above design, I had used a couple templates and they had these guys piped together as you see above. In my mind one would be the supply and the other two would be returns to each tank. I was not sure if two returns would be a good idea or not. I will likely go with just one return back into the fish tank.

Thanks for the tips on the blocks.

I can't say how much I appreciate you guys and this forum. You have saved me hours of swear words and extra parts.

Here is the updated design. I will only be able to get my hands on four of these IBC's. I plan to build more grow beds in the future out of wood and various liners. I may even put the additional grow beds outside.

I was thinking of using bottom lifting overflow lines to help remove solids from the bottoms of the tanks.



http://i.imgur.com/v202e.jpg


I took the Tristana's design from the "IBC of aquaponics.pdf" and made a few modifications.

The change I made was to use the pump to supply the grow beds and then to have the extra pressure shoot in the far tank. I then tie the two fish tanks together and at the same time try and suck solids from the bottom of the tanks. This would then flow into the sump tank. Does this make sense or is it better to overflow into the grow beds and only pump into the fish tanks?

As far as the tanks and steel go I plan to cut one or two tanks steal vertically to allow more support for the grow beds, this is another idea from the "IBC of Aquaponics" thanks David

Question: What size bell siphons should I use here? 1" or 3/4"? Have any of you tried combined siphons?
Would there be an advantage to tying the two fish tanks together at the bottom, in the new design?

Much love,

[Bioritize]

Hey Guys,

The tanks arrived today thanks to my wonderful parents who hauled these bad boys for me from the front range.

http://i.imgur.com/JMvQvl.jpg

I still have a couple questions about the plumbing, what size riser and header should I use? I was thinking 1 1/2" and the same size for the returns. Then I was going to use reducing T's to each grow bed through a 1" ball valve. Will this work or should I go to 2"?

[davidstcldfl]

Just my 2 cents....
1 1/2" drain for 'each' IBC would be good. If they are tying into a common drain header, make the header 2 ".

On the supply, if your using 2 danners, on one common supply header...yes, use (at least) 1 1/2. I think someone already mentioned this....if you use a common supply header, use a check valve on each pump. A 'flapper' type if you can find them. It won't effect the flow as much as a 'spring' type.

You 'could' drop to 1 1/4 or even 1 inch, if the pumps are on seperate supply lines.

[Bioritize]

Hey David,

I may try and use just one pump for now and hold another for a backup. Since I am only going to use 4 of these guys and have about 550 gallons in the fish tanks. In my previous system I used a 1" supply riser and header and the thing made a ton of noise, it often tried to pull air from the grow bed outlets as the water passed almost an venturi effect. I would like to prevent this extra noise.

How about the bell siphon stand pipe and outlet size? Would 1" be ok?

Thanks again,

[davidstcldfl]

In my previous system I used a 1" supply riser and header and the thing made a ton of noise, it often tried to pull air from the grow bed outlets as the water passed almost an venturi effect. I would like to prevent this extra noise.
I understand you don't want extra noise....but you lost me with...it often tried to pull air from the grow bed outlets as the water passed almost an venturi effect. Your correct, larger supply pipe will slow the velocity of the incomming water.

If noise is such a factor....every time a bell siphon kicks in, your going to hear lots of noise. :( Each grow bed will siphon aprox 4 times an hour ( or more), times 4 grow beds...which will be aprox 16 times per hour, 24 hours a day. If more then one bed is draining at the same time, it'll be twice the noise.

Here's somethiong that may help...do a search for Affnan / Silencing the Aquaponics
Also on 'youtube'....search for Affnan: siphon noise comparrison


How about the bell siphon stand pipe and outlet size? Would 1" be ok?
My 2 cents....A 1 " stand pipe 'may be' too big. Remember, your flow will be going into 4 differeant grow beds. You must have enough flow to make each one engage.

Two things you can try...
First, when your reading about Affnan bell siphons, you'll notice he uses a reducing coupling on top of his stand pipes. This helps the siphon start much easier with 'less' flow.
Second, I'd put a 1" bulkhead (slip x slip) in to the bottom of the growbeds. Then you have the option of experminting...if you want to try a 1/2" or a 3/4" stand pipe, just add a 'bushing' to the bottom of the stand pipe. You can even change the drain size, by using a 'bushing'. Of course, when your starting out...don't cement anything together till your happy.

[Bioritize]

Sounds good,

My bulkhead showed up today and I got the 1". I will use one of these bad boys and I am modifing the caps on the IBC tanks as my other bulkhead. The caps are 2" and I found a couple 2" to 1" bushings today.

Here is a video of the progress.

[video:kmhw7owo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCgLSwQlZEI[/video:kmhw7owo]

Edit: Here is a link boss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCgLSwQlZEI


Later

[foodchain]

no video.

[Basil1]

Video works fine on this end.

[foodchain]

Guess I suck then.

[davidstcldfl]

Works fine for me too.
Foodchain, here's the link @ youtube ....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCgLSwQl ... r_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCgLSwQlZEI&feature=player_embedded)

[foodchain]

Seems I am having all kinds of tech issues. I still can't get pics to upload. I have had several posts now that just don't take the pics.
Guess I just got an extra dose of the short bus.

[Bioritize]

I would run the adobe updates and see if your java and browser are updated. If that doesn't work switch to Mozilla.

[Bioritize]

Hey Guys,


Working on the last video right now. I have the setup completed and it passed the water test. My brother and I are now on to the task of washing rock :twisted: Love this shit!!

Anyway, we filled the two 250 gall tanks with our spring water which was at 40 degrees. The room is typically between 75 - 70. How long do you think it will take for the tanks to come to room temperature? Is there a formula for this?

Would it be worth it to heat these tanks to 78 - 82 or get species that like the room temps?

Right now I am thinking Blue Tilapia and some sort of crayfish.

Kind of excited about using this water and these rocks we just got, a load of mixed basalt and volcanic rock.

Here is a photo

http://i.imgur.com/bmulEl.jpg

These grow beds are deep!! 16" and 19" :mrgreen: :mrgreen: . I couldn't bare the thought of chopping them down and having a scrap piece of plastic I wouldn't use. So we decided to go deep.

[davidstcldfl]

Looking good Bioritize... :D

JMO...Cost wise...you'd be better to get fish, that like that temp.
'If' those block walls were well insulated ...you could try heating the room air more. Then the floors above would feel warm too. I don't know what your heating bill would be like if you did that...?
I'm surprised how fast channel catfish grow and they have a higher meat vs. bone ratio then tilapia do. Bream would be good at those tempts too.

[keith_r]

i would go with a species that is cool water tolerant..
and make sure you get a good quality fish food.. bluegill will do ok with lower protein feed, which would be ok for catfish as well..

yelllow perch or trout would require a higher protein feed (carnivore) thats usually in the mid 40% protein range..

[foodchain]

What holds the IBC tote 1/2 up? The one in the center. It appears to bow already, so if you add media to it to complete the grow bed, and add water you may have problems.

[Bioritize]

Hey Food,

The middle bed is held up by the two supports plus an additional two bars we drilled and added to the bottoms to support the frames. Here is a video to show how we did this. So I have four cross members on the bottom of the middle bed.

[video:225fnrix]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-Z4mxZT3eM[/video:225fnrix]

The Video is a little funky

[Bioritize]

Alright here is a video of the whole system ready for filling with rocks which took us 6 hours to wash for only 2 of the grow beds :lol: :lol: . We will wash the final pile tomorrow.

After a few doses of hummonia we are at 1 ppm in the water. So I will monitor these levels for the next few weeks until it has been processed into Nitrates. Then I will get the fish and drop them in. Do you think it would be wise to add them earlier, say when the ammonia turns to nitrites?

[video:gytkn7hc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6OOUaW_fs[/video:gytkn7hc]

[foodchain]

Many people have different ways of doing it. I don't wait. I use a filter sponge from another tank and rinse in the water, then I add my fish.
I have been advised this is not the best way, but I haven't seen problems with it.

[Bioritize]

Hey Guys,

Here is an update video, we had to add an extra sump tank the system to allow us to utilize the sumps as well as to prevent overflow and under fill of the tanks. I plan to add the other pump this week. I hope to see the nitrites gone in a couple days... or weeks. It seems to have taken a long time to cycle this winter, which I wondered if it was similar to natural yeast and the best times to get the yeast to culture a sour dough.

I kinda want to get fish now, but if it takes another month for the nitrobacter to show up, my fish may suffer a long exposure to super high nitrite levels. So we wait.

[youtube:p76g9jp0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kx0UoA0vOY[/youtube:p76g9jp0]

I will update again soon.

[Bioritize]

Well I have been reading a bit more on Chop systems and it seems like this design I have constructed my not be the best. I hear a lot of talk about the solids being chopped and pushed back into the fish tanks via the pump and that is if and only if the solids actually lift out of the fish tank.

I am starting to think that I should well rethink this design a bit at least the plumbing part. Any ideas?

[mespe]

Looks kinda scary, when you add the rocks, or even expanded clay, you've going to put alot of weight on those IBC's. Yes they were designed to hold the weight, but not with any span on the frame. You should at teh very minimum support the entire IBC frame. Ideally a couple 2x4's one horizontal, and one underneath position vertically should support the weight you plan on putting on them cinder blocks. you might also consider cementing some of the blocks together, so they won't topple.

[keith_r]

i'm thinking of going constant flood in my basement system..

[Bioritize]

The nice part here is we found our property and will be moving this guy in 10 days. I am going to use three bottoms for the supports instead of the willy nilly fashioned top piece you see in the middle.

I am also going to change the plumbing around and instead of having the FT overflow into the sumps I am going to have it overflow into the grow beds. This way I am not pumping fish solids back into the fish tanks. The only problem is that the fish poop will not get macerated or chopped up by the pump at any point here. So maybe that is not the best idea.... I am not sure really.

So we get a second chance at this build and I will also be changing to a smaller diameter rock, this rock was a bit to bit for my liking. Although we still have plants growing just fine from seed straight in the rocks.

[davidstcldfl]

The only problem is that the fish poop will not get macerated or chopped up by the pump at any point here. So maybe that is not the best idea.... I am not sure really.
Red wigglers to the rescue.... :lol: They'll take care of it.
Give 'em some banana peels once and awhile too... :D