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View Full Version : Greetings from Melbourne, Australia



threequote
12-14-2011, 08:04 AM
Hi All,

Firstly I would like to thank the people involved in the several hundreds of posts I have read over the past few months to generate my interest in Aquaponics. I was looking for something fun for the family to do in the evenings together and my young children love fish.

So against some peoples posts I decided on a continuous flow system that feed from the bottom up and after some testing and modifications have a working system that pumps about 850L an hour.

1 x Fishtank
Nally Megabin 780L
Clear Pond Infiniti 4200 Pump - External Fully Encapsulated Pump (Overheating Protecting/Minimal Maintenance/Adjustable Flow Rate)
PondOne Claritec 5000UV filter

2 x Grow Beds
Nally Megabin 780L (2)
Water input from the bottom 25mm and 3 x 25mm out to the fishtank. Water flows out from GB at 859L hour.
50% gravel (20-40mm) in the bottom & 50% clay pebbles top as these bins are deep.
The flowing water is about 50mm or so under the top of the clay pebbles.

I have included some pictures and you can see 3 unused bins which i will plumb soon, but wanted to run the other 3 first to make sure everything was working ok.

I decided on a sub surface continuous flow system before making my design as this was my first attempt and was much easier to design and deploy imo. I have read many websites over the internet on this topic CF vs F&D.

If I flooded from the top my understanding is you risk the water not evenly spreading through bed and there has been plenty of reports in plenty of forums of blockages in beds. My problem was that because my beds are so deep I had to fill with gravel 50% meaning if I got a blockage I would have to more than likely remove just over a cubic metre of gravel and clay pellets to fix it. Because I pump from the bottom the pressure is quiet good to prevent it happening and the top can block in theory but I can dig 50mm down and clear it if it ever did block. My understanding is my bed will still work as a biofilter and the solids filtration I think will be quiet good given the size of the bed, mixed fill and filter. In theory I could actually backwash the setup anyway I guess if it did become a problem.

I have an aerator with battery backup ready but haven't decided to use it yet as the outflow seems to break up the surface tension of the tank fairly well and appears to oxygenate the water well, but proof will be in the plant growth and fish behaviour i guess. Given I am still cycling and waiting on the plant life to take off, I guess I will make a decision in the coming weeks. I have read several articles and posts on this exact topic no-one ever agrees, hence why I bought the aerator to begin with but prefer not to have to use it to keep operating costs down and prefer to use it as a power out aerator.

Ill post some more info in the coming weeks to let you know how it goes. Its a bit of fun and if I have to go flood and drain it is fairly basic mod from what i can tell.

Thanks again and if you have any advice or tips please feel free to send them through.

-J.

foodchain
12-14-2011, 08:34 AM
Interesting setup. If I understand you right, those bins are very deep, far deeper than you probably need. You have some extra hardware too, that while not necassary IMO, are still nice to have. The deeper bins, and media should allow you though a higher stocking density with your fish as this allows a greater surface area for filtering. Are these insulated? Or are you not worried about temp swings?

urbanfarmer
12-14-2011, 10:33 AM
Welcome! Nice looking system you got there! :-)

commander
12-14-2011, 11:25 AM
Welcome from Texas. Interesting set up. I would love to see more photos and diagrams!

alex281
12-14-2011, 04:45 PM
Welcome! very interesting setup indeed!

threequote
12-14-2011, 06:21 PM
Here is a simple diagram and you can see the in and out in the photos in terms of height and location on the bed. Hope this helps. I will take more photos in the coming weeks as it develops. The Nally Megabins were cheaper where I am from than regular tubs the same width and diameter (Obviously less height). I like using the deeper bins as the gravel in the bottom help spread the incoming water and nutrients through the bed before hitting the roots (so I'm predicting) and they great thing is they are portable as we relocate every few years. Forklift the bins onto a truck and presto :)

The temp is a concern, these bins are semi insulated and the temp has been quite low. I am cycling now and as I live on a lake I can compare the natural temperatures of the water here and make sure its ok. There is a lot more water in the tank than in the photo, these photos were taken a few hours after testing it. The water has cleared up really well too. We don't have too colder or hotter temps here compared to other areas of the world and can use a heater if I needed too.

A little bit of fun anyway! I don't know about you guys, I have found out that some people around the world take this stuff way too seriously and seem to try and kill the enjoyment in it. I reckon a lot of people are put off with the conflicting information and rants some people have. I found it hard to absorb some information online for some design questions so I went and chatted to some irrigation and plant people too. From what I can tell Aquaponics has its key principles but is pretty flexible, except where you are using it on a commercial scale i guess. Looking forward to hanging with the kids outside a bit more.

davidstcldfl
12-14-2011, 06:44 PM
Hi threequote, welcome to the forum.... :D

That's an interesting set up. Looking forward to see how the grow beds work with the flow coming up from the bottom. Hope you keep us posted... :)

stucco
12-14-2011, 06:51 PM
Nice setup! I really like the mega bins.

commander
12-14-2011, 08:27 PM
Sure wish those bins were available in the US.

Oliver
12-14-2011, 09:38 PM
Nice looking system.

You need to add lots more aeration and to get rid of your UV light before you kill the bacteria in your system.

Oliver

threequote
12-14-2011, 11:21 PM
aeration I am sorting today, wasn't going to do it until the fish were in but am told it helps cycling as well?

urbanfarmer
12-15-2011, 01:07 AM
aeration I am sorting today, wasn't going to do it until the fish were in but am told it helps cycling as well?
It depends. In the right context it might. But, to keep it simple let's just say you can't put too much oxygen in the water whereas you can put too little.

I think you have a great design. I look forward to seeing how it turns out! :mrgreen:

stucco
12-15-2011, 05:07 AM
@ commander we have those bins in the us. I have four of them.
http://www.decadeproducts.com/products/MACX/main.html

foodchain
12-15-2011, 06:06 AM
The UV sterilizer won't kill the bacteria in the filter, it will however kill the pea green soup algae that plagues ponds, and if you push the stocking densities and ever have a problem with ich or anchor worm or some other parasite it will assist in eliminating them while suspended in the water column and off the host.
I have used UV sterilizer's for years with no adverse effects on any bacteria or filters, both indoors and out, and on both fresh and marine systems. The only thing I dislike is having to change the bulbs and having to be mindfull of NEVER touching the bulb with your bare hand as the oils on your hands can cause 'hot spots' on the bulb itself. Never, never run it without water. As the water cools the bulb. NEVER look at it when on, if the UV kills nasties in the water, what do you think it does to your eye?

foodchain
12-15-2011, 06:12 AM
If you were to add a gas exchanger down stream from the UV this would help with some of the aeration as well. Or/and depending on how much you need...run a piece of tubing with slots in it across the return line. So the 'clean' water coming back to fish tank sprays out due to pressure and aeriates on the way down to the water. Not recomended to be used by itself here. But the more contact water has with air the better off your going to be. I have seen this in use with drilled holes instead of slots. Many variations out there. This keeps from having to have another machine, Good luck.

foodchain
12-15-2011, 06:16 AM
Probably not needed, but a particulate filter in front of the UV will increase the effecientcy of the UV filter as the particles protecting the stuff you want to fry harbors them, and protects them from the cleansing light. Just a thought. Pay attention to flow rates, you can't have the water exposed to the light too long.....but it's possible to expose for too short of time, thereby reducing it's effectiveness. Just keep the flow high enough to cool the bulb. Your manufacturer should have sent you a optimal flow rating in the paperwork.
There are DIY ones out there, please pay attention to your flow. Bulbs get expensive.

keith_r
12-15-2011, 07:03 AM
i wouldn't bother with uv... at least with an ap system.. when there is a bloom, the uv only penetrates a very little bit, so doesn't help a whole lot..
most ap'ers get the initial algae bloom after their system has been running.. covering the ft and adding aeration will get you through this stage, and when the algae dies off (after a few days of being covered) it produces a chemical that inhibits further algae blooms..
oh.. and adding aeration to your ft will help with cycling..the bacteria do consume oxygen

Oliver
12-15-2011, 10:58 AM
The UV light adds no value to your system. Take the electricity it uses and apply it to added aeration.

Not all bacteria live in the bio-filter.

Heterotrophic bacteria remain suspended in the water and are necessary to mineralize the solid fish waste and other organic material.

Autotrophic bacteria also are found in the water and some of them attach themselves to the media of the bio-filter where they nitrify the ammonia in the system along with those found in the water.

If the UV light is effective in doing its job, it will kill all of the heterotrophic bacteria and much of the system's autotrophic bacteria.

If you have been using a UV light and it has not appeared to adversely affect your system, then consider yourself lucky, as it is not doing a very good job. You might as well turn it off and save the electricity and the cost of replacing the bulb.

Oliver

foodchain
12-15-2011, 12:36 PM
Your above statement is in contradiction. The UV has no way of getting to the bacteria in the filter. Set one up and try it. They are very good at what they do. I won't run an intensive culture without one.
The amount the light penetrates depends on the wattage you have, take one apart and look at the gap between the bulb and the sleeve. It's not very big as it's meant to do a thorough job, and this is best acheived by limiting the amound of water that goes by...therby prolonging the exposure time. If you are only running a handfull of fish, you are absolutely right, there's no need. But in an intensive culture you really do need this. In any livestock you run, the higher the concentration the higher the risk of an epidemic, in aquaculture, which is what this is when you remove the grow beds...you may want to at least consider it. Especially if you are going to push the production limits. Again...low populations make it a waste of money. High populations is an investment you can't live without, or if you do...it's at your risk.
Yes, the UV will kill the bacteria in the water. And? It's supposed to. That's the purpose of this unit.
Technically the bacteria are on everything in the tank, including the fish.
Your not worried about the bacteria in the water so much as it is the bacteria in your GB, it's there that the waste is broken down. That's why there's a corelation between the amount of fish and the amount of GB. Too little and there's not enough surface area right? Your bacteria don't migrate through the water from the fish to the GB's. They are dividing, and multiplying. Not one organism traveling around. AFTER the system is ballanced, a UV light will do nothing to the filter, prior to balancing it MAY prolong the process. IF the sterilizer wiped out the bacteria in the filters reefers all across the country, public aquariums, aquaculture facilities, etc would all be having serious levels of mortality.
Go to your local public aquarium, request a behind the scenes tour. You will either see a UV sterilizer or Ozone. They both do similar things, sterilize the water.

Oliver
12-15-2011, 02:18 PM
foodchain:

I stand by my previous statement. Please re-read it and see that what I said is different than what you are referring to.

This is not an aquaculture system to which we've added some grow beds/bio-filters. It is an aquaponics system that has different and special requirements. It is about the balance between the fish, the bacteria (all the beneficial ones that live throughout the system) and the plants.

I believe you have over simplified the beneficial bacteria by grouping them into one type that are located in one place, the bio-filter. The truth is that there are at least two types of bacteria that break down fish waste, of which only one (autotrophic) reside on, but are not limited to, the substrate generally found in the bio-filter. They don't always remain there or there wouldn't be any in the water, which there is. The heterotrophic bacteria, as I have stated, remain in the water until they attach themselves to organic mater (which are also suspended in the water) for their feeding duration and are susceptible to the destructive effects of UV light as are the autotrophic bacteria that also freely float around in the water. The heterotrophic mineralize the solid fish waste, and other organic material found everywhere in the water. But, I am repeating myself here.

I will say this only one more time, turn off the UV light and allow nature to do what it does best, converting all fish waste into useable nutrients for the plants. Stop trying to over control what is happening in the aquaponics system. Filter your water going into the system, grow plants from seeds and don't transplant them from soil and breed and brood your own fish to help keep your system pathogen free. Add lots of aeration to the system to keep it healthy. Low dissolved oxygen content is a huge detriment to the health of the system and is often thought to be some other problem.

Oliver

foodchain
12-16-2011, 05:14 AM
I think we will have to disagree. Years of PROVEN application amongst public aquariums, aquaculture facitlities, universtities, fish farms, etc and my own applications in marine, marine aquaculture, and freshwater are more adequate proof for me that these statements above are inaccurate.
IF what you are saying above is true in application and not just theory, then for at least the last 20 years we have all been doing it wrong. The probability of this is next to none. However as the hobby grows, we uncover new things and new ways of doing it. So there's a possibility, but very slight.
I will concede on this though, and tell you to do as you wish with your own systems. Mine, as I push production to the very limits probably further than I should. And I run population concentrations very high by comparison to most people, I HAVE to have the sterilizers, or run the risks of epidemics I can't recover from. The risk of losing it all far outweighs the minor electrical consumption or the bulbs as they have to be changed.
For me, it's not a hadfull of fish, or even a couple five gallon buckets worth...
I can't risk the shear volume of fish, and potentialy having to break a whole system down on a hunch that goes contrary to world wide application. I have yet to see any data that supports your statements that UV sterilizer will kill off all the bacteria.
But I do acknowledge that everyone's systems are different, and while requirements may be similar. Applications are different.
The absolute best thing I can say is: Do as you wish with your own systems. Do what works for you. For me, I guess I will be a little less effecient on the electrical, but my fish, my inverts, etc will all be healthier.
Best of luck which ever way you go.

bsfman
12-16-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't have near the knowledge or experience of some folks here on this forum, but that being said, I've viewed aquaponics since day one as a pyramid. At the base of the pyramid are the nitrosomonas, nitrobacter, heterotrophic and autotrophic bacteria that sustain the system. Fish are in the middle of the pyramid and plants are at the top. My view has been that I have to maintain a system friendly to those various bacteria in order to form a base for the rest of the pyramid. It seems to me that anything that is counterproductive to maintaining that healthy bacteria population is counterproductive to the entire aquaponics ecosystem. Bascially, aquaponics keepers are successful bacteria farmers.

That being said, I've always been under the assumption that UV pond lights are primarily used for algae control. But in aquaponics, I view algae as a good thing - an indication the bacteria are busy converting fish waste from chemicals harmful to my fish, to chemicals beneficial to my plants (and a certain amout of algae growth).

I suspect those public aquariums using UV sterilizers are doing so not so much for the benefit of the fish as they are for the benefit of paying customers who wish to view the fish through crystal clear waters.

But I could be wrong. (I've often been before)

foodchain
12-19-2011, 05:43 AM
UV is used for algae control in ponds/stock tanks. BUT
They are used in aquaculture and many marine systems for disease and bacteria management.
In the end, they do both though. They are meant to sterilize the water. By doing this, they actually do a lot of things. Whether they are for you or not, is up to you. Algae by itself is a result of excess nutrients in a system, it's not good or bad, it's an indicator of what's going on your system...
Systems that do run them have significantly reduced the risk and out breaks of a great many parasites, and other ailments. It's just a tool people...it's the right tool for the right job. For me, it's preventative medicine, and has proven to be just that for a great many for some time. Some folks do just fine without it.
I have done both, and after matching the right UV to my setup, and gaining some understanding in them, I won't go without them. When I just had feeder goldfish and they died it wasnt the end of the world as the replacement cost was minimal. As my collection, and invested expense has increased though, the risk of such losses is no longer a financial option to replace or excessively risk when so easily preventable.
Some folks won't build big enough GB to support their bioload, so they have to do partial water changes too or install additional filters. Just because they do it that way, and it doesn't make one right or wrong. It's just the way they do it.
Is there a better way? Depends on what their budget/space, spouse will allow. I can't tell them they are wrong, who am I to do that? What I can say, is for me...there's a better way to do it. Or I can say, have you thought of?

keith_r
12-19-2011, 06:48 AM
right.. you're talking aquaculture..
aquaponics is a different animal so to speak.. most backyarders do not use UV, nor do they need to... most "fish problems" are the result of power outages causing depletion of do, drastic temp/ph swings, or improper monitoring of levels of am/ni/na and not reacting to problems..
UV doesn't have any impact on any of these, and may in fact give the backyarder a false sense of security..
the bacteria are going to be in a system no matter what you do, but by avoiding causing stress to the fish is the best way to keep your system healthy..

foodchain
12-19-2011, 12:06 PM
But fish disease, parasites, and bacteria aren't.
My "aquaculture" system is my backyard system. Simply instead of running one fish, or one species, I opted to maximise the available space and run it as a polyculture. Keith you are doing something along the same lines already with the crays and YP. Just not as extreme as my setup, but the idea starts to grow, and before long you have several species all in the same water.

foodchain
12-19-2011, 12:09 PM
Its the same concepts is all I am saying. The parasites, algae, etc don't care if it's just aquaculure, AP, or out in the lake. They react/behave the exact same way in regards to their cycles. It's the cycles they go through that makes them susceptable to the UV.
No, you don't have to have UV. No I don't HAVE to have it. But again the cost of replacement of my aquatics, vs the cost of the UV in MY application make it a no brainer. In your's Keith it doesn't, not yet. IF you continue to add different species it may not be a bad idea.
They do more benefit than harm.

foodchain
12-19-2011, 12:11 PM
You are absolutely right, reduction of stress, especially as a preventative is worth an arm and a leg.
Please keep in mind though, just like any agriculture the denser you run your livestock the faster diseases spread. UV is a tool for me to contain the risk. Nothing more.
An ounce of prevention, whether by stress reduction, proper water parameters, temps, etc will always be better then a lb of cure. This really is true.