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foodchain
12-06-2011, 12:42 PM
Possibly wrong place to post...my apologies. I didn't see a place that fit.

It's a question on biology.

Prolonged exposure to brown blood disease is supposed to have adverse effects including sterilization of fish...or so I have read. Keep this thought in mind.

My Tilapia spend more time breeding instead of getting bigger as of lately. Wasn't a problem in the past, but this generation just wants to breed. For my purposes, this is wasted energy. I am trying to make them bigger, faster.

IF the above note on Brown Blood is true, then wouldn't I want to expose them to it to sterilize them, forcing the body to grow instead of breed. Therby making them bigger? But I have no way of testing to know when is enough enough. I can't find any articles anywhere on this. I don't like the reverse sex options or the hormone options I have read. Any input on this would be greatly appreciated.

keith_r
12-06-2011, 01:28 PM
you've got other options..
if you suspend something like egg crate over the bottom of the tank, you'll keep the female from picking up and hatching her eggs, so she'll eat..
you could increase the water temp of the breeders.. i think if you are over 96f, you'll have over 95% males from that hatch..
chemicals can be used when the fish are fry to change them to male if i'm not mistaken.. but i want to avoid stuff like that..
i think some cross breeds of tilapia have higher % male offsprig

urbanfarmer
12-06-2011, 01:51 PM
Maybe it meant they would be sterile because they would be dead?

Can you share the academic literature, please?

keith_r
12-06-2011, 02:40 PM
litarature regarding which aspect? lots of info out there on all of the points mentioned
kellen is our resident tilapia expert, he can probably chime in on this.. but
i was a little off on a couple of the numbers regarding temps, but there is this;
http://www.waset.org/journals/ijbls/v6/v6-1-7.pdf

urbanfarmer
12-06-2011, 03:25 PM
My post was in reference to...


Prolonged exposure to brown blood disease is supposed to have adverse effects including sterilization of fish...or so I have read. Keep this thought in mind.

keith_r
12-06-2011, 03:28 PM
i guess i'm just used to you questioning me.. :shock:


:lol: :mrgreen:

urbanfarmer
12-06-2011, 05:00 PM
I figured :lol: :lol:

davidstcldfl
12-06-2011, 05:27 PM
My post was in reference to...


Prolonged exposure to brown blood disease is supposed to have adverse effects including sterilization of fish...or so I have read. Keep this thought in mind.


UF, I sent you an email with with the article on brown blood. It was from another site.

urbanfarmer
12-06-2011, 06:55 PM
Replied. I don't think that was the article though.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 05:27 AM
I pulled that referance from a book I have. Let me see if I can find something on it online.
The egg crate is a nice idea. I can't control temp though on breeders. It's whatever TX weather gives me. I keep them outside during the growing season.
Sterility is listed as a harmful side effect of brown blood, however my question is, is this necassarily a harmfull thing? If I can limit the effects to just that, than I would say no. But I am not so arrogant to think I can control something like that with such preciseness. Since it's winter, I do have the option of attempting something like this. But question whether or not it's a good idea.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 05:50 AM
Here's something I have found...some of it applies to this thread, but also to a previous thread on salt treatments. For simplicity, I have cut n pasted.

The second breakdown product in the nitrogen cycle is NO2, which is also toxic to fish. NO2 can enter the bloodstream passively across the gill epithelium. It complexes with hemoglobin to form methemoglobin, resulting in methemoglobinemia or brown blood disease. As in other species, RBC containing methemoglobin are unable to transport oxygen, resulting in a physiologic hypoxia regardless of oxygen content in the water. There are species-specific differences in fishes’ susceptibility to NO2 toxicity (eg, centrarchids [bass, bluegill, etc] are refractory to methemoglobinemia). Marine fish were thought to be protected from NO2 toxicity by salts in their environment; however, red drum have developed brown blood disease in the presence of NO2. A tentative diagnosis of brown blood disease can be made by observing the characteristic chocolate brown color of the gills. Blood samples will also be an abnormal color. Methemoglobin concentrations in the blood can be determined, although this is not necessary for clinical management. A water quality test can confirm the presence of NO2. Fish affected with methemoglobinemia typically show signs of hypoxia, often manifest by piping. The most rapid treatment for NO2 toxicity is a water change, but this may not be feasible in production ponds. Increasing chloride Cl-) concentration in the water creates a competitive inhibition at the gill epithelium between Cl- and NO2. By increasing the concentration of Cl-, so that there are 6 parts Cl- to 1 part NO2, the percentage of Hgb converted to methemoglobin will decrease dramatically, providing immediate relief to the fish and stopping most further mortality within 24 hr. Salt can be used to increase the concentration of Cl-. To determine the amount of salt required, the concentrations of NO2 and Cl- present must be measured, by commercial test kits. The concentration of Cl- needed (mg/L) = (6 ¥ NO2) ? Cl- present. Once the concentration of Cl- needed is known, the volume of water can be calculated in acre-feet (1 acre foot = 1 surface acre, 1 foot deep), and salt can be added to increase Cl- to the desired concentration (4.5 lb of salt will add Cl- at 1 mg/L to 1 acre-foot of water). In aquariums and garden ponds, a water change and filter maintenance are recommended, although salt may still be used to halt mortality.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 05:51 AM
For those looking for the whole article, here's the link:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... htm&hide=1 (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170406.htm&hide=1)

I am still looking for a digital referance as requested previously. I will post it as soon as I locate it.

urbanfarmer
12-07-2011, 06:07 AM
What is the book and on what page?

I am just curious about the claim that methemoglobinemia leads to permanently sterile fish. Methemoglobin is normally present in fish blood at low concentrations. Moreover, seeing that methemoglobinemia is a completely metabolically reversible process, I don't understand how permanent sterility would occur.

Also, I cannot find any literature that states methemoglobinemia causes sterility in fish. Albeit, I looked briefly, but the search engines and databases returned 0 results. So, I had no hope of finding anything without doing an extensive search.

Thanks, I appreciate your effort. :ugeek:

foodchain
12-07-2011, 06:22 AM
I am at the office, I can look when I get home. It listed the effects on liver, kidneys, renal failure, discoloration of blood, heart tissue, coloring of gills, and fins, etc. And as a side note, noted that prolonged exposure would lead to death, sterility, and should be avoided. Then it went on to list treatments and prevention. My problem is it didn't explain it, least ways not the above mentioned points, so I thought I would ask here. You yourself UF are mouch more educated on the 'how comes' and 'whys' of things so I figured this would be a good start. Hence the title of the thread was "biology question". As in I don't know. But I have been reading enough stuff to know, that just because it's printed or online doesn't mean it's true. I will find what your asking for this evening when I get in.

urbanfarmer
12-07-2011, 06:49 AM
Yessum. I'm trying to figure it out for you, but I honestly have never heard this nor read about it. If it only notes it briefly, then that may be a dead end as well. I can't think of anyone I can ask that would outright know the answer.

Post the info when you can, and I will try to search for an answer using that.

bsfman
12-07-2011, 06:51 AM
For those looking for the whole article, here's the link:

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... htm&hide=1 (http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/170406.htm&hide=1)


Amazing the stuff you can learn accidentally while looking up other stuff! Thanks for posting this link, Foodchain!

I'm currently cycling my new tilapia breeder system using sunfish I caught in my canal. I have 17 large sunfish, roughly 5 pounds worth, that I seeded the new system with 5 days ago. Ammonia spiked to 8ppm but cycled to zero in just 4 days thanks to the old media and bacteria with which I'd innoculated the new system. But nitrites started climbing immediately and are still at levels in excess of 16ppm. I've seen no signs of distress in the sunfish whatsoever. I've been amazed each morning to find no floaters or sick fish in the tank. A line in your article caught my eye: "There are species-specific differences in fishes’ susceptibility to NO2 toxicity (eg, centrarchids [bass, bluegill, etc] are refractory to methemoglobinemia)". I admit, I had to look up what "refractory" meant when used in this context, but it turns out it means "immune, or not affected by".

This is valuable info to anybody starting up a new system! The ubiquitous sunfish may be the perfect candidate for cycling a system. It always seems to take longer to deal with nitrites than ammonia with a new cycle. What better fish to use than one impervious to nitrite in doing so? Just use an amount of sunnys (by weight) equal to the poundage of tilapia, catfish, perch, koi, or whatever fish you plan to ultimately introduce. When the system equilibriates, remove the sunfish and either repatriate them or eat them, then introduce your intended species!

Viola!

foodchain
12-07-2011, 07:02 AM
I have another breif reference I just found.
This one is online, but also does not explain it. It will not let me cut n paste...stupid site. But I can give directions.

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cycling2.htm

Now scroll down to NITRATE, last sentence of first paragraph.
It seems though that in the searching, that there's a lot of contradictory information out there.
The common thought seems to be, that amonia, nitrites, and nitrates all have "ill" effects. Though there is some dispute as too how much. Some sites say nitrates and nitrites have 0 effect, others state there shouldn't be any measurable levels at all or "ILL" effects will be result.
In reading an aquaculture PDF, it states that different species have diffent tolerances. And that warm water fish typically tolerate it better than cold water....didn't know this, but have noticed some species of fish handle stresses differently.

Anyway. I also found that PH plays a major role in determining how much salt is needed, and at what concentration to relieve the symptoms.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are current (in the last few years...2000-present) that state ANY salt can be used, and the some is better than none, while there's articles in the SAME time period that are ademant that only CL I think it said can be used. At the end of this I have learned one major point.

There's a lot of information and disinformation out there. Alot of it is contradictory to each other, and sometimes to themselves. I have a head ache now.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 07:15 AM
More info: For all those that like to pee in their tanks....:) And for those looking to better understand what exactly amonia does and doesn't do.

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com ... Cycle.html (http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Nitrogen_Cycle.html)

Also covers cycling types, effects, and myths. Hope all this info helps someone.

It doesn't resolve my original question. For that answer, it appears that people are making guesses. Whether educated or not is yet to be determined. But none the less, they publish it...and people take it as the truth as they don't know better.

On that note. Please please don't ever take what I say as the bonified, this is it, truth. I am not saying don't trust me. Just please understand that a lot of this in my opinion is more art than science. I can tell you what I have done, what I have tried, what I have read/heard. Somethings work, somethings work repeatedly, something are supposed to work and don't. I don't know why.

What I have posted here have been my findings from reading and researching. I haven't tried any of this brown blood disease stuff, however in veiw of there being no clear answer I may try an experiment to find out. But I don't know how to limit the variables to just one.

As the above research has proven that PH, Temp, and species all play variables in the equation.
UF, or anyone give me input here?

On a side note, I did learn that if you have a 'salty' well. You are less prone to brown blood disease or nitrate/nitrite poisoning. At least that's what the posting said. I don't have a salty well, so I don't have a end all fact discussion on that.

urbanfarmer
12-07-2011, 07:16 AM
I have another breif reference I just found.
This one is online, but also does not explain it. It will not let me cut n paste...stupid site. But I can give directions.

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cycling2.htm

Now scroll down to NITRATE, last sentence of first paragraph.
It seems though that in the searching, that there's a lot of contradictory information out there.
The common thought seems to be, that amonia, nitrites, and nitrates all have "ill" effects. Though there is some dispute as too how much. Some sites say nitrates and nitrites have 0 effect, others state there shouldn't be any measurable levels at all or "ILL" effects will be result.
In reading an aquaculture PDF, it states that different species have diffent tolerances. And that warm water fish typically tolerate it better than cold water....didn't know this, but have noticed some species of fish handle stresses differently.

Anyway. I also found that PH plays a major role in determining how much salt is needed, and at what concentration to relieve the symptoms.

Not to beat a dead horse, but there are current (in the last few years...2000-present) that state ANY salt can be used, and the some is better than none, while there's articles in the SAME time period that are ademant that only CL I think it said can be used. At the end of this I have learned one major point.

There's a lot of information and disinformation out there. Alot of it is contradictory to each other, and sometimes to themselves. I have a head ache now.
Yes, the Cl- ion is what combats the nitrite toxicity. Some species are very sensitive to it while others could care less (do we love Tilapia or what).

Although the link you provided is from a source I would never even consider as a reference, it does state that nitrate affects breeding. Sterility implies the organism loses its ability to reproduce altogether. There are many factors that can affect breeding, some, seemingly innocuous, such as temperature, light, or sound.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 07:19 AM
True, I never claimed the source was trustable. Just noted the reference. Starting to think a lot of this stuff is word of mouth more than concrete facts. Frustrating.

urbanfarmer
12-07-2011, 07:26 AM
@foodchain Yes, a salty well, meaning NaCl, would provide the chloride ions that would help reduce the effects of nitrite toxicity on fish.

It's great that you are willing to share your experiences and observations with us, that kind of knowledge sharing is a cornerstone of this community so no newbie thinks you are stating it as gospel. Just make sure you always disclaimer it in some way. Folks fall pray to the mentality that if they "think" they figured out the causality of an observation then they start stating it as fact, which leads to the dissemination of misinformation A.K.A. folklore. Often times, it's wrong information and you will see me chime in quite passionately on the topic. Be advised, this is normal behavior.

This may have been your first time, but I think you realize the benefit of doing research and trying to validate your own conclusions using research or science before trying to tell others (not saying you did at all) that what you think what you figured out is the ultimate Truth.

When I harass you guys, it makes you learn, which then releases me from having to harass as much because then you harass the newbies and they learn (don't think your harassment has gone unnoticed keith, refeiller, nice work fellers).

It's a vicious cycle, I know.

urbanfarmer
12-07-2011, 07:28 AM
True, I never claimed the source was trustable. Just noted the reference. Starting to think a lot of this stuff is word of mouth more than concrete facts. Frustrating.
BY GEORGE HE'S GOT IT! :lol:

Yes, you have just uncovered a fundamental problem we are at WAR with here on the forums. I fight on many fronts including my county extension and through my university as well as others. Some of us are willing to dedicate more to this war, but it's good to have allies no matter where they're at. :lol:

foodchain
12-07-2011, 07:31 AM
But when BOOKS, legitametly published books state something, especially when they are text books. You would think there's a certain amount of credibility. Screw it. I am pitching em. Simply cross checking data via google is just as reliable.
I wrote off aquarium hobby books at an early age, as the ones from the 80's are in total contradiction to todays. So the only way to have a good book was to keep buying the latest editions. Thank GOD for google.

urbanfarmer
12-07-2011, 07:35 AM
But when BOOKS, legitametly published books state something, especially when they are text books. You would think there's a certain amount of credibility. Screw it. I am pitching em. Simply cross checking data via google is just as reliable.
I wrote off aquarium hobby books at an early age, as the ones from the 80's are in total contradiction to todays. So the only way to have a good book was to keep buying the latest editions. Thank GOD for google.
TEXTBOOK or just BOOK? Typically, a textbook is comprised of facts that have been experimentally verified THOUSANDS of times and there is often a list of referenced research for the TEXTBOOK as long as the textbook itself...

Yes, there are MANY books published with bad information (recent aquaponics book comes to mind). If the book is not used as a text at an accredited university for an accredited degree program for an accredited course (they are accredited and scrutinized at each level) then I wouldn't call it a TEXTBOOK. However, there are books that will often have a list of references at the end of every chapter. I have many such books. I can take you a picture of how it is laid out to give you an example if you'd like? These are excellent resources because the information presented is representative of the body of human scientific knowledge and the conclusions being presented as facts are "disclaimered" heavily.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 07:38 AM
My old man worked for the fisheries dept in the NW when I was real little. I have his fisheries books, and texts from when he was in training/school. I also have an extensive collection of hobbiest, and aquaculture texts. But am finding more and more that the info is outdated or proven better ways by today's standards.

foodchain
12-07-2011, 07:41 AM
Honestly, until now I never paid attention. But your right, even my english text book had references. I will have to check it out when I have time. But if the publish dates were in the early 80's or late 70's that would put the references then prior to that...mid 70's? So that data, while it may have been gospel then, may not be accurate now. As for credibility....it's DNR (dept of natural resources) I think it was. Would have to look though. They are old.

harbely
12-10-2011, 03:25 AM
Is Biology a good class to take in college to become a dental hygienist? I want to be a few things, but in this question; i would want to know how to become a dental hygienist. I may either be attending Stevenson University, or Goucher College. So, pretty much the only class that relates to dental hygiene is Biology.
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Shas
12-10-2011, 12:21 PM
This is valuable info to anybody starting up a new system! The ubiquitous sunfish may be the perfect candidate for cycling a system.

Viola!, indeed!
I've always felt bad about using 'sacrificial' fish for cycling new systems
prior to installing the 'valuable' fish.
Too much like religion-in-a-tank.

The sunfish and other centrarchids are "ubiquitous"
only on YOUR side of the Rockies.
A bit harder to find here on the west coast.
I wonder what other "refractory" species I can substitute?

BTW, I'm not sure I'd be willing to sterilize my fish
by inducing heart, liver, and kidney disease.
Especially if I planned to eat them...

Shas
12-10-2011, 12:41 PM
Is Biology a good class to take in college to become a dental hygienist?...i would want to know how to become a dental hygienist. I may either be attending Stevenson University, or Goucher College.

Biology is worth taking no matter what your career goals are!
If you want to know what specific courses will advance your plans,
get the Course Catalogues from Stevenson and Goucher
and see what the prerequisites are.
That will be far more authoritative
than the opinion of anonymous aquaponicists.

"Goucher College has instituted a study-abroad requirement—each undergraduate must complete at least one study-abroad experience"
That's interesting.

I found an interesting statement about Stevenson, too:
"Over the past five years, on average, 97% of graduates have been employed or have started graduate school within six months of graduation."
Cool!

Shas
12-10-2011, 12:49 PM
(Textbooks) are excellent resources because the information presented is representative of the body of human scientific knowledge...

Well, yes.
To a certain extent.
Within the context of the era and philosophy within which they are published.
Just as the references are born of research
which ordinarily supports conclusions
congruent with the views of the funding body.

If you're looking for answers to questions that are truly important to you
there is simply no substitute for looking at the research for yourself.
Education is not so much about learning facts
as about learning how to learn!

commander
12-10-2011, 01:03 PM
I am aghast. You are seriously proposing that people do research on their own? You want people to actually READ! OR, horror or horrors, invest time in compiling data and actually doing quantitative analysis of the data and then, gasp, formulating their own interpretation and conclusions! Why, are you some kind of throwback? (REMOVING MY TONGUE FROM MY CHEEK AND DOING AND EXAGGERATED EYE ROLL).

urbanfarmer
12-10-2011, 01:05 PM
I am aghast. You are seriously proposing that people do research on their own? You want people to actually READ! OR, horror or horrors, invest time in compiling data and actually doing quantitative analysis of the data and then, gasp, formulating their own interpretation and conclusions! Why, are you some kind of throwback? (REMOVING MY TONGUE FROM MY CHEEK AND DOING AND EXAGGERATED EYE ROLL).
:lol:




(Textbooks) are excellent resources because the information presented is representative of the body of human scientific knowledge...

Well, yes.
To a certain extent.
Within the context of the era and philosophy within which they are published.
Just as the references are born of research
which ordinarily supports conclusions
congruent with the views of the funding body.

If you're looking for answers to questions that are truly important to you
there is simply no substitute for looking at the research for yourself.
Education is not so much about learning facts
as about learning how to learn!
Right! We call that process science. :mrgreen:

WAbedroomponics
01-23-2012, 02:07 AM
Ok I have used this site for a long time and as I have gotten older (a year changes a lot about you when you're only 17) I have wanted to learn more on my own about aquaponics and the biology and chemistry of the systems. Would anybody be able to suggest any good helpful books? I know and understand a lot (but yet so little) about why the different things happen and how to fix and improvise for most situations (but I am by far NO EXPERT!). I love to read just not fiction like most people… I LOVE to read textbooks and data and scientific explanations and to look at the data that backs it up and just everything about it. So anything that can start me off on the search for knowledge. It doesn’t have to be the perfect book just a book to point me in the right direction.

foodchain
01-23-2012, 03:51 AM
The problem I find, is a lot of this stuff is learned by experience. The books I have, depending on age...some of which are not that old are in direct contradiction with one another. My experience with more than 20 years of messing with this...is that it's more art than science. Everything is a balancing act. When I adjust something on one end, it effects something on the other...some times this is intended and expected, other times it's a surprise. Books and data has only been able to provide me with a foundation. Nothing beats hands on in my opinion.

keith_r
01-23-2012, 06:39 AM
there isn't a ton of "aquaponics research" that is published by reputable sources, and what works in one area, might not be such a good idea in another..
but there are some important basics that you can find lots of information on..
studies on different species of fish, studies on fish feed, etc
there are some places that have published some good ap specific studies.. like UVI..(In the Virgin Islands).. Dr James Rakocy is considered the "father of aquaponics" from his studies there..
i've been trying to get the book "small scale aquaculture" that has some great information in it..
then you have the whole study of plants and nutrient uptake...etc..
there's also the mechanical engineering that goes into a system.. figuring out the load of growbeds to support, plumbing, electrical backup system..
and don't forget chemistry...

urbanfarmer
01-23-2012, 10:54 AM
Ok I have used this site for a long time and as I have gotten older (a year changes a lot about you when you're only 17) I have wanted to learn more on my own about aquaponics and the biology and chemistry of the systems. Would anybody be able to suggest any good helpful books? I know and understand a lot (but yet so little) about why the different things happen and how to fix and improvise for most situations (but I am by far NO EXPERT!). I love to read just not fiction like most people… I LOVE to read textbooks and data and scientific explanations and to look at the data that backs it up and just everything about it. So anything that can start me off on the search for knowledge. It doesn’t have to be the perfect book just a book to point me in the right direction.
We'll make an aquaponics expert out of you yet maggot! :lol:

Well, I'm not sure what the depth of knowledge that you seek, but you sound like me so I will give you the full monty. These are a few of the books I have read, and I feel these give you the best concise information on relevant topics:

1a) Biology & Chemistry foundation to understand advanced topics in aquaponics:
http://www.khanacademy.org/#biology
http://www.khanacademy.org/#chemistry

1b) Biology & Chemistry foundation to understand advanced topics in aquaponics (alternative to 1a):
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-01 ... pring-2005 (http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/biology/7-014-introductory-biology-spring-2005)
http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/chemistry/5- ... -lectures/ (http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/chemistry/5-111-principles-of-chemical-science-fall-2008/video-lectures/)

2) Beginning topics on aquaponics:

Aquaculture: An Introductory Text (2nd Edition) by R. R. Stickney
ISBN-10: 1845935438
ISBN-13: 978-1845935436

Botany for Gardeners: Third Edition
ISBN-10: 160469095X
ISBN-13: 978-1604690958

3) Advanced topics in aquaponics:

Handbook of Plant Nutrition by Allen V. Barker (Editor), David J. Pilbeam (Editor)
ISBN-10: 9780824759049
ISBN-13: 978-0824759049
ASIN: 0824759044

Tilapia: Biology, Culture, And Nutrition
ISBN-10: 1560223189
ISBN-13: 978-1560223184

4) Supplemental material:

Tilapia Culture
NOTE: This is a fast read and you can read this instead of Tilapia: Biology, Culture, And Nutrition TO START, but should ultimately be read in addition to everything else.
ISBN-10: 0851990142
ISBN-13: 978-0851990149

There is a lot of published research I would add to this list, but it is on my hard drive in a giant mess of files (thousands of scientific documents that I need to organize). If you are looking for a broad education on aquaponics, the above is a GOOD STARTING PLACE. You will note I don't have any material specifically on hydroponics. I feel it would be redundant and the topic is discussed in the above literature in adequate detail for our purposes. If you want to skip step 1 above you can jump straight into step 2, but the rest of the literature will be way over your head without some basic science courses under your belt (the books in step 2 are introductory texts geared more towards the layman). The above only scratches the surface in my opinion, but in reality if you absorb all that knowledge it would make you more of an "expert" than 98% of the consultants and trainers out there charging thousands for their "expert knowledge" on the topic. :lol: Anyway, ENJOY!

WAbedroomponics
01-23-2012, 12:19 PM
Thank you I will get right to reading those. This will be fun lol :-D

Shas
01-23-2012, 01:19 PM
My suggestion is similar to what the Urban Farmer gave you
but a bit less specific:
I don't have a background in aquaponics
(never heard of it a year ago)
but the basic general principles from my biology degree
allow me to make a lot of shrewd guesses
and assess a fair amount of aquaponics advice
as BS or useful.

(I hypothesised the production of piscine growth inhibiting hormones
years before the question was addressed by formal research.
It turns out I was correct, and more importantly
acting upon my speculation allowed me to earn enough money
from raising cichlids to put me through university!)

I would look up first-year biology courses
from a couple of reputable colleges/universities
and see what textbooks are being assigned.
Then I'd google a textbook exchange and buy a few of them cheaply.
I've always loved reading biology texts,
and you will in effect be able to give yourself a university course
that you will use every day of your life.

I wish I had been as wide-awake and focused at your age.
I was mostly doing manual labour and marching in peace demonstrations :=)

WAbedroomponics
01-23-2012, 04:32 PM
I want to learn alot and be ready for college because I want to be a bio/chemist working in ocean acidification and similar environmental work because not enough people care to work in those areas and since I love sitting in front of a microscope counting chromosomes or alga I feel like I must do it lol and my biology and bio/chem teachers would tan my hide if I wasted my passion for bio/chemistry and the environment

Shas
01-23-2012, 06:38 PM
Those are good passions.
I loved working in the lab
as well as on the beach.
The most fun courses I ever took, without exception,
were in Marine Invertebrate Biology.

Go get 'em, kid!
We need people like you
who care about more than making big bucks!

WAbedroomponics
01-23-2012, 09:43 PM
I want to look back on my life and know I did what I could to help our environment. I have always grown up shrimping, crabbing, clam digging, salmon fishing and pretty much any other lake, ocean or forest type of activity. ALL of these we will lose if people who have the passion and the ability to comprehend bio/chemistry don't do something.

foodchain
01-24-2012, 04:23 AM
I started out in Marine Biology with an emphasis in Macro. I grew up just west of you further out on the Peninsula and got hooked on this stuff from the salmon hatcheries out there as a kid. The above mentioned material is valuable, and you should grasp at least a basic concept of biology. There's several community colleges in your area to consider contacting. Even one right out on Whidbey Island near the Naval Air Station. I looked at attending there when I came home from the service. There's some small ones out on the Peninsula too that should be able to point you in the right direction...There's a lot of information available for free from ext. offices via PDF format, as well as what's listed on this site.
As far north as you are, I would scrap the Tilapia idea. And look at yellow perch, bluegill, or rainbow trout. Trout was one I started with at about 8 years old. And there's plenty of fingerlings in the streams around you.
However, I still believe nothing replaces simply rolling your sleeves up and getting wet. And pay attention to what you see/observe.

urbanfarmer
01-24-2012, 11:41 AM
Those courses are recorded lectures from MIT for chemistry and biology. They were actual courses taught. The books are in the syllabus section of the website. You can basically follow along as if you were in the course (use your imagination).

If you have any other questions or need some more direction, feel free to ask. We're here to help! :-)

WAbedroomponics
01-24-2012, 12:30 PM
I wrote off tilapia a LONG time ago lol :-D I have been raising guppies in my system and am going to try to breed angel fish in my system because my plants always keep my nitrates low enough and it keeps the ph perfect and my local stores will give me 1 buck cash 2 buck credit for a angel. I am gonna read those tilapia books though because im sure I will learn something interesting

Shas
01-24-2012, 02:25 PM
If you run into problems with your angels,
feel free to drop me a line.
I used to supply the metro Vancouver area with them,
and kept 16,000 young ones in my tanks.
I might still remember a trick or two.
I think your water is the same as vancouver
(very soft and fairly acidic)
and they loved it.

My special project was attempting to breed
completely black lace veil-tails
I suppose there are lots of those nowadays
but at that time it had not been done.
The black colour plus two recessive genes
was challenge enough,
but those genes appeared to be linked to some others
which interacted synergistically in a negative way.
Producing two out of three wasn't difficult,
but all three targets phenomes together was rare,
and the resultant individuals tended to be small and delicate.
I did get a few black lace veiltail couples to spawn,
but the hatching rate was very low
and none of the fry survived to the laterally compressed body shape.

Sorry, I didn't mean to ramble on.
Your project brings back a lot of memories.
Good luck with it!

Oh, and I don't know what today's market prices are,
but I used to sell wholesale at the dime-size and quarter-size,
and my price was exactly twice the price
of the Hong Kong/Singapore imports.
The reason for that was that the long-distance shipping
had a fifty percent mortality rate
plus mine were local, vibrantly healthy,
and came with a full replacement guarantee
which was rarely abused.
And I always added around 10% extra fish
as a sort of good-will policy.
So make a friend of a per=t shop owner/employee,
find out what they are paying the asian factory farms,
and charge twice that price.
As I said earlier, these little babies paid for my biology degree!

WAbedroomponics
01-24-2012, 04:23 PM
I am going to pick up two pairs on Saturday and hopefully they are good looking :-D

foodchain
01-25-2012, 05:12 AM
I tried the black lace veils in the late 80's early 90's. I too had the same problem of slow growth and development. They seemed fragile and would die off quickly. Exact opposite of the silvers/standards. I also had more trouble getting the laces to breed to begin with. Very picky. I faired fairly well with Krebinsis, and that lead me to the whole chichlid world....And man can you have some fun there. I ran danios, and white clouds during the summer months in outdoor tanks on the peninsula up there with no problems at all.
Now that I am in the south, I play a lot with discus. The price per fish is a lot higher...for the same amount of work. I have found through the use of peat instead of acid I can force the PH lower if needed. But I agree, WA water is already very low ph to begin with.

Shas
01-26-2012, 12:02 AM
Ah, discus.
What beautiful animals.
I was looking at some the other day
and was astonished at the solid blues
and the reds (REDS!) that are being bred today.

I bred mollies, gouramis, oscars, and bettas a bit
(and guppies for feeders)
but the only thing I was ever in to in a big way was angels.
I loved those little guys-
so intelligent and elegant
and with really interesting social behaviours.

I'd still be breeding them,
but we moved inland
and the pH of our creek water is a solid 8.0.
I swore decades ago that would never get involved
in anything that required significant alteration of the water
(which is how we got into breeding rodents and birds,
but that's another long story.)

I'm with you on using peat to reduce pH.
Beats the hell out of acids and works as a relatively long-term buffer.

foodchain
01-26-2012, 04:23 AM
Only thing I don't like about peat is the water staining. Filtering through fine particulates helps some but doens't reolve it. Once it's tea colored, it seems to stay that way.
I work mostly with the blue diamond/red snakeskin cross. Very nice deep blue with bright red striations. Somewhat of a highfin, not quite diamond. Very very similar to angels in many ways. But command much higher prices, and once you get the hang of it, I find them easier to breed. Excellent type to start honing your skills on conditioning water, breeding pairs, and learning to push the envelop on hatch sizes and hatch survival.

But I have done most chichlids, a great many livebearers my favorite being sword tails. @ 6 years old I bred my first fish, pineapple swords...first hatch, and only hatch I has a siamese twin at the belly. Never heard of it before, never seen it since. They didn't live. This led to the tiny egg layers...started with danios here, as they could live outside during the summers in WA.

I had huge amounts of progress with phenotypes. Especially in breeding a blue convict cichlid.
After learning the basics, the price I could get for my babies drove which species I kept. After all its the same amount of work when you get a nickel each or $50 each...
This in turn led me to marine species and culturing their food from lab cultures...daphnia, micro worms, vinegar eels, walter worms, green water, brine shrimp, etc. And then to corals and fragology....marine inverts was/is a blast. But rarely live to adults. Just a hair beyond my expertise.

Now I mess mostly with game/food fish and inverts in a happy balance of polyculture. I work it in an AP format, but unlike most people I use the AP side to filter out excess nutrients and that's about it. After all this is how AP came to be...or so I read. My reasoning: 1 lb of lettuce is what...$1 and change? 1 lb tilapia is about $3 depending on quantity and time of year. Catfish is about the same, and the prawns I get between $15-20 a lb also depending on quantitiy and time of year. My point is, from a financial standpoint....I would be dirt poor if I was just growing lettuce. But lettuce/basil, etc is the cheapest filter I have found yet. Now add in strawberries, ornamentals, etc and you start seeing a steeper rate of return on your investments. Limitations only seem to be in how fast, and at what lb/lb conversion ratios I can mantain. Brings to the other thread on here about food. To maximise yeild of return, I push my system harder than I probably should. And do things I probably shouldn't as they are unecassary risky....but the potential of return to me exceeds the risk.

Shas
01-26-2012, 10:43 AM
Only thing I don't like about peat is the water staining. Filtering through fine particulates helps some but doens't reolve it. Once it's tea colored, it seems to stay that way.

I kinda like that, though.
In fact, for a while there I was buying a product...
nope, can't recall the name of it now,
but it purported to be a concentration of the tannins and so on
that perfuse the waters of the Amazon basin.
It made the water a dim tea colour
which made the angels a bit difficult to see,
and correspondingly confident and at ease.



once you get the hang of it, I find (discus) easier to breed.

To breed, perhaps, but the breeders I knew back then
were scrambling to keep survival and developmental rates of the fry up,
as they were dependant upon the mucous of the parents for nutrition...?



This in turn led me to marine species and culturing their food from lab cultures...daphnia, micro worms, vinegar eels, walter worms, green water, brine shrimp, etc.

Geeze, if I had a dollar for every million artemia and drosophila I raised.
I learned to hate those darned fruit flies.
I got sick of slimy banana and sour pablum.



...unlike most people I use the AP side to filter out excess nutrients and that's about it.

Yes, I'm a bit surprised that aquarists are not using enhanced "sand filters"
as grow beds as grow beds to surround their aquaria
with lush greenery representative of their fish's natural environment.
It seems like a 'natural' to me.



My point is, from a financial standpoint....I would be dirt poor if I was just growing lettuce.

I'm not so sure.
My AP motivation began as an exercise in self-reliance
(and an excuse to raise fish again)
but with the bourgeoning enthusiasm
for eating locally, organically, and with a minimal footprint
the produce side of the operation may become the most lucrative
(except for those with the ability to grow expensive aquatic life, of course).
Tom and Paula Speraneo were early AP pioneers
and have been showing a profit for something like 30 years now.
Tom is gone now,
but he calculated that he was producing and selling
something like sixty pounds of produce
for every pound of tilapia.
Your fish bring in much more per pound,
but you can harvest several crops of green food
while those fish are growing to marketable size.
With a big handful of caveats thrown in there, of course.

WAbedroomponics
01-26-2012, 11:59 AM
my AP is also a filter... I'm seeing a trend lol. I use a sand filter (I think) because it keeps my sulytem cleaner then any other filter I have found and it is alot better, cheaper and easier to maintain then any filter I have found.

foodchain
01-26-2012, 12:08 PM
I got started in this as a spin off from live planted tanks....I used those like sumps in reefs to filter out the unmentionables from the water...the aesthetics were second.

I got reemed a while back for having the opinion that AP is a way to filter your aquarium/aquaculture system. So be carefull. Don't want to be the cause of any flaming.

All I can say, is whatever your reason for doing this is....enjoy it. If you kill it all, so what? Figure out why, clean it up....and don't do that again.

Never messed with fruit flies. I found easier ways...to me anyway of getting around that.

Did a lot with bettas...but wife got upset with all the quart jars around. I put those outside during the summer down here too.

Basil1
01-26-2012, 12:24 PM
I got reemed a while back for having the opinion that AP is a way to filter your aquarium/aquaculture system. So be carefull. Don't want to be the cause of any flaming.

Don't see why. I grow veggies on top of my 120 to filter the excess nutrients out. Monitoring a fish site I am on and some there are getting into plant filtration big time.

foodchain
01-26-2012, 01:09 PM
Plant filtration and AP are essentially the same thing. A little more hardware. But from the big picture it's exactly the same. At least ways that's all mine is. The media holds the bacteria the same way the media in a filter does, the plants complete the nitrogen cycle. It's a no brainer.
The thread is around here somewhere though...rather than picking the hill to die on though I cowed out. But I am saying be carefull....some people are adament that it's about "balance" and not a green leafy filter. Eh...tomato potato or whatever it is.
Good to see your still here basil....how's everything?

Basil1
01-26-2012, 01:42 PM
A few good days interspersed with too many bad. At least the weather here is great so it helps. Got a few things coming up and getting ready for a harvest of tomatoes.

Got a butternut squash growing on the tank flowering like crazy but so far only male flowers so nothing much there.

What's new with you?

foodchain
01-27-2012, 04:22 AM
About the same luck as you. Working two jobs, still building house. My AP stuff has more or less slid to a back burner. Good thing these things don't require a lot of work to keep going. Got plans to renovate entire system come spring, but seems I have elaborate plans every year and few come to full fruit.