PDA

View Full Version : Peas and Nitrites



jrlevers
11-17-2011, 06:02 AM
Does anyone know if growing peas and other nitrogen fixing plants such as beans affect nitrite levels? My system is two months old and I'm having issues with unreadable nitrite levels. Last test: Ammonia 0, Nitrite > 5, Nitrate 160. Temp 82 and pH 7.8.

My tilapia are starting to suffer and no matter how many water changes I do I can't seem to get my Nitrites down. I have peas, beans, yellow peppers and lettuce growing (14 plants) and duckweed.

I have recently increased the amount of feed they're getting because they're approaching 4 inches.

Any advice? :?:

foodchain
11-17-2011, 06:09 AM
Epsom salt eleviates stress in Tilapia from this. Not sure if peas will tolerate it though. Sounds like your system isn't aged enough....allowing the bacteria to build up. Kind of like new tank syndrome. I actually have the MAX tolerances recommended for treatment somewhere. I have exceeded them, but only in isolated tests to check salination tolerances. If I can find it the dose, I will post it. Until then, google brown blood disease and nitrate toxicity. Oddly enough I just concluded an experiment on just this...while I did shut it down prematuraly due to mortality rates I did learn a lot. So those deaths were not in vane. Trust me on the salts. NOT iodized. Use kosher, sea salt, epsom salt....I even used some reef salt left over from my fraggin projects. Turn up your air pumps. Scrap the small air stones and buy the bubble wall type with the finer bubbles. Try turning your temp down a little if nothing else works. Cooler temps hold more DO than higher temps. As long as change is gradual your fish should be okay. They don't like sudden changes of any kind. Best of Luck.

foodchain
11-17-2011, 06:13 AM
Here's the dosing I have found: "Did some research. Max salt dosing for increase of O2 intake, and minimize nitrate, amonia issues max salt dose is 1/2 ounce/gallon. The higher doses are more for treatment than prevention."
Have a friend double check your conversions if you are using a larger system. My friends suck at math, so I bought a digital scale from Harbor Freight and had a converter built in. I prefer to use Epsom salt, as it's cheap. I treated a 330 gallon volume tank, and saw visible relief of stress in minutes....no exageration.

urbanfarmer
11-17-2011, 11:24 AM
Epsom salt eleviates stress in Tilapia from this. Not sure if peas will tolerate it though. Sounds like your system isn't aged enough....allowing the bacteria to build up. Kind of like new tank syndrome. I actually have the MAX tolerances recommended for treatment somewhere. I have exceeded them, but only in isolated tests to check salination tolerances. If I can find it the dose, I will post it. Until then, google brown blood disease and nitrate toxicity. Oddly enough I just concluded an experiment on just this...while I did shut it down prematuraly due to mortality rates I did learn a lot. So those deaths were not in vane. Trust me on the salts. NOT iodized. Use kosher, sea salt, epsom salt....I even used some reef salt left over from my fraggin projects. Turn up your air pumps. Scrap the small air stones and buy the bubble wall type with the finer bubbles. Try turning your temp down a little if nothing else works. Cooler temps hold more DO than higher temps. As long as change is gradual your fish should be okay. They don't like sudden changes of any kind. Best of Luck.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

SODIUM CHLORIDE (better known as regular TABLE SALT) is the SALT you are looking for.

The dosage ratio is 6:1 of chloride : nitrite in whatever unit mass you want, but commonly PPM is used here. So, for 5 ppm nitrite you want to add 30 ppm chloride. The chloride compete for uptake through the same metabolic pathways. Remember, fish control these aspects of their body chemistry through osmoregulation. On a side note, Tilapia are very well suited for these kinds of abusive environments.

The University of Florida IFAS Extension has put together a very easy to read document for folks in your situation. Please HAVE A READ:



THE USE OF SALT TO PREVENT AND TREAT BROWN BLOOD DISEASE

Freshwater fish, particularly channel catfish, are susceptible to brown blood disease, which is caused by an accumulation of nitrite (N0 2 ) in the water. Although most studies conducted on brown blood disease have used channel catfish as a model, many other freshwater species are also susceptible to the condition. A detailed discussion of nitrite toxicity is provided in a separate IFAS publication. Following is a brief review of the use of salt to prevent and treat brown blood disease.

In freshwater systems, nitrite toxicity is directly related to chloride (Cl - ) concentration, since nitrite (N0 2 - ) and chloride (Cl - ) particles compete for space to cross the gills and enter the bloodstream (see Figure 1 ). As chloride concentration in the water increases, nitrite's ability to enter the bloodstream decreases.

Figure 1 .

The critical component in brown blood disease is the chloride (Cl - ) portion of the salt molecule (NaCl). For this reason, a test to measure chloride concentration (ppm) should be used rather than a test that uses a hydrometer or refractometer to measure salinity.

A minimum chloride concentration of 20 ppm is recommended to prevent nitrite toxicity among channel catfish in ponds. Most ponds are supplied with water containing at least 20 ppm Cl - ; however, salt should be added to ponds containing less than 20 ppm Cl - to increase the chloride concentration to the desired level (see Table 1 ). For each acre-foot of water in the pond (1 surface acre, 1 foot deep = 43,560 ft 3 ), 4.5 pounds of salt adds 1 ppm chloride.

Salt may be used to minimize mortality and facilitate recovery of fish that develop brown blood disease. For every ppm of nitrite present, 6 ppm chloride should be used to control the disease. As described earlier, the producer must determine the required chloride concentration, adding 4.5 pounds of salt per acre-foot of water for each ppm Cl - needed (see Table 2 ).

HOW TO MATH: CALCULATE SALT FOR NITRITE (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/vm007#TABLE_2) <-- click

foodchain
11-17-2011, 11:27 AM
Correct, that's why you DO NOT used Iodized salt. Epsom salt is not iodized.

foodchain
11-17-2011, 11:31 AM
However for simplicity sake, most people do not have a way to convert or calculate PPM.
Ounces/gallon is easier although not as accurate. But the desired effect is still the same. Some salt is better than no salt. But it is relative to what plants you are growing as some plants simply will not do well with the salt.
I use this same salt treatment with many ornamentals, and have used it with a variety of ailments/treatments. Although I can't prove that the salt is the reason for the cure. There are simply other variables that could have contributed. However the point of my rambling is, is that 'salting' freshwater is a common practice and can be done a great many ways...so long as it's not iodized. So yes you can use table salt, if NON Iodized.

urbanfarmer
11-17-2011, 11:40 AM
Correct, that's why you DO NOT used Iodized salt. Epsom salt is not iodized.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

IN BIG CAPITAL LETTERS, NO! AGAIN, WE ARE NOT USING MAGNESIUM SULFATE (EPSOM SALT) WE ARE USING SODIUM CHLORIDE (TABLE SALT). PLEASE UNDERSTAND THE DIFFERENCE SO AS NOT TO GIVE OUT WRONG INFORMATION TO UNSUSPECTING VICTIMS.


Magnesium sulfate (or magnesium sulphate) is a chemical compound containing magnesium, sulfur and oxygen, with the formula MgSO4. It is often encountered as the heptahydrate epsomite (MgSO47H2O), commonly called Epsom salt, from the town of Epsom in Surrey, England, where the salt was distilled from the springs that arise where the porous chalk of the North Downs meets non-porous London clay. Another hydrate form is kieserite.


Table salt

In Western cuisines, salt is used in cooking, and also made available to diners in salt shakers on the table.

Table salt is refined salt, which contains about 97% to 99% sodium chloride by weight.

urbanfarmer
11-17-2011, 11:46 AM
However for simplicity sake, most people do not have a way to convert or calculate PPM.
Ounces/gallon is easier although not as accurate. But the desired effect is still the same. Some salt is better than no salt. But it is relative to what plants you are growing as some plants simply will not do well with the salt.
I use this same salt treatment with many ornamentals, and have used it with a variety of ailments/treatments. Although I can't prove that the salt is the reason for the cure. There are simply other variables that could have contributed. However the point of my rambling is, is that 'salting' freshwater is a common practice and can be done a great many ways...so long as it's not iodized. So yes you can use table salt, if NON Iodized.
Okay, so you ARE using sodium chloride (table salt). Perhaps you got the names mixed up (fortunately not the chemicals). Just as an aside, I put epsom salt into my tanks too. Of course, not for this reason whatsoever. I also put table salt into my tanks, but again, NOT for this reason EITHER. :lol:

foodchain
11-17-2011, 11:51 AM
I need to do some research on this, the book I have states differently. I will return to this once I have all of my data. And I apologize if I gave anyone the wrong info, that was not my intention. What I did provide is a combination of what I have done, and what I am reading here. I suppose it's an older book, but I wouldn't think that would have anything to do with the chemical make up of salt. Either way, I have pm'd you on this as well. The only problems I have ever had was with table salt, book aside...that's the truth. Or at least I think it was the salt that was the cause, as the symptoms were releived as a direct result of adding "epsom salt", but intensified and mortality when added table salt. I must confess though that this has me puzzled and will have to broaded this out. Again...my intention was not to mislead anyone. Just about 3 weeks ago, I had the exact same problem, and resolved it with this method. I will return with the data to sort this out.

foodchain
11-17-2011, 11:54 AM
Maybe, but NOT the table salt MY wife buys at the grocery store, and puts on the table. I myself, I know other types work...but I only use my sea salt mixes left over from reef work, epsom salt or kosher salt. The table stuff is bad news...for me...may work for other people. It just made my fish float (upside down).

urbanfarmer
11-17-2011, 01:10 PM
I need to do some research on this, the book I have states differently. I will return to this once I have all of my data. And I apologize if I gave anyone the wrong info, that was not my intention. What I did provide is a combination of what I have done, and what I am reading here. I suppose it's an older book, but I wouldn't think that would have anything to do with the chemical make up of salt. Either way, I have pm'd you on this as well. The only problems I have ever had was with table salt, book aside...that's the truth. Or at least I think it was the salt that was the cause, as the symptoms were releived as a direct result of adding "epsom salt", but intensified and mortality when added table salt. I must confess though that this has me puzzled and will have to broaded this out. Again...my intention was not to mislead anyone. Just about 3 weeks ago, I had the exact same problem, and resolved it with this method. I will return with the data to sort this out.
We are ALL here to learn from EACH OTHER. That's the purpose of a community. No harm done, but hopefully much was gained! :mrgreen:

foodchain
11-17-2011, 01:19 PM
I found the problem. It's the terms. We are saying the same thing, I just have them backwards. Not sure why table salt doesn't work for me though, also I am not sure what kind of salt the wife buys....whatever it is, it doesn't mix well with my tanks. I may need to set up another set of tanks, and test that out and see if there's a tolerance level.

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 01:21 PM
Thank you for the quick replies! I turned down my temp to 78 in the tank, added another air stone and I'm going to dose with salt. I have a bunch of non-iodized salt from pickling/cheese making so that shouldn't be an issue.

Would you folks mind checking my math just to make sure I'm correct? I'll follow this post with another once I have a little time to figure out the dosing.

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 01:28 PM
Ok. One issues I have is... I have no way of measuring the existing chloride in the tank. I would assume that since my water was out of the tap and dechlorinated that it would be zero? Or does tap water generally contain chloride as well?

foodchain
11-17-2011, 01:31 PM
You said these are Tilapia? I would lower to about 75 degrees, slooowwlllly. I can't calculate your dose, as I don't know how many gallons of water you have. I have you should see change in behavior after about 30 minutes of having added more air. It doesn't take long to see improvement. Maybe not a total fix, but at least an improvement. When I am having a really hard time, I put a 20 inch box fan blowing acrossed the top of the tank. Not sure if this does anything but the logic I use, is that I am changing the air out over the surface, allowing fresher air to come in contact with surface. The more surface area you have the better the gas exchange. Not sure if perceived or real, but I think this helps some too.

foodchain
11-17-2011, 01:37 PM
I would imagine it has some, but that would depend on where your municipal water comes from. At this point, I don't think it matters....this is more art than science in my opinion....mostly as I suck at the science part and rely more on trial and error. Any salt that you do have in your water, isn't enough...simple as that. Unless you are living in brackish coastal waters. Keep in mind, this is more of a band aid. Not a fix all. This helps to buy you time, hopefully enough for the bacteria and like to balance you out. Good news, improving your water quality, increasing DO and increase filter area/bed area as this works as a filter, will make this problem go away on it's own in time. This more or less treats the symptoms. I am sure UrbanFarmer can tell you lot's more than I can about the actual science part of it. But as I said, I literaly just went through this. While what I do probably isn't the easiest, best, or the smartest. It does work and has for years.

foodchain
11-17-2011, 01:39 PM
Add salt slowly, over time....best to mix in some tank water first rather than just dumping into system, this allows salt to dissolve instead of having a huge lump of salty goo in a corner.

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 01:41 PM
Ok. I attempted the math and quite frankly I don't think I understand it enough to feel comfortable using any numbers I came up with. In fact, I'm probably just plain wrong. So...

I'm assuming a Chloride of 0 and my tank volume is approximately 140 Gal. Can anyone help with producing a number of oz of salt to use?

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 01:44 PM
Thanks. I realize that Nitrobacter takes a lot longer to establish in a biofilter. The surface area of my filter is rated up to 800 gallons (I went big so I can expand the system someday) so that's not the issue. I just don't want to lose any more fish.

Unfortunately when I planned my system I purchased 25 Tilapia and the goof I bought them from sent me 64. So I realize I have way too many fish for the gallons I have but I thought I could get away with it until they got bigger/I could build a larger tank.

I have only lost 4 of the smallest fish in the last two months so I figure I've done well to this point.

foodchain
11-17-2011, 01:48 PM
Double check me...as I have already proven one flub up today. :)
But 16 oz = 1 lb
Assuming we are using 4 oz/gallon MAX. And assuming you have 0 now.
140 gallons of water.

4 oz * 140 gallons = 560 oz. 560 divided by 16 oz = 35 lbs MAX. I would start off with much less.
Like maybe 5 lbs. Mix lightly with lots of water and slowly introduce to system.
I weighed mine out by the lb, and dosed at 1 handfull every 30 minutes in a 325 gallon tank with heavy aeriation. Maybe there's a better way to do it...I don't know. So don't crucify me....this is just what I did.

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 01:52 PM
I was thinking of starting off a lot lower. Perhaps a 1/2 oz per gallon. That way I can always add more if needed and have some wiggle room. Not say that your dosing is too high, I just want to play it safe. I've invested a lot of time into these damn fish. :D

And again I can't tell you how much I appreciate the info. I've been wracking my brain about this for a week now and I never came across dosing salt in my internet searches!

foodchain
11-17-2011, 02:31 PM
I have NEVER dosed that high....but that info is what the math calculates out to. And that is what I have read in several places.
Like I said earlier, research brown blood disease, as this is what you have.

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 02:45 PM
WOW. That's all I can say.

I decided to go with the 1/2 oz per gallon (Ironically I only had enough to do that dose anyhow) which worked out to 70 oz for my 140 Gal. I put it in slowly and that fish INSTANTLY looked less stressed. They stopped gulping entirely. I'm sold.

Thanks so much again for your help. You helped save the souls of 60 tilapia. You're like a fishy Jesus. LOL. :lol:

jrlevers
11-17-2011, 05:57 PM
Final question. Do I do a water change after putting the salt in? Or can I leave the saltwater in the tank?

urbanfarmer
11-17-2011, 07:13 PM
Ok. I attempted the math and quite frankly I don't think I understand it enough to feel comfortable using any numbers I came up with. In fact, I'm probably just plain wrong. So...

I'm assuming a Chloride of 0 and my tank volume is approximately 140 Gal. Can anyone help with producing a number of oz of salt to use?
Sorry, I got to run back to work, this post is as far as I got, but here are the calculations:

140 Gallons x (3.78 L / 1 Gallon) = 529.2 L

5 ppm nitrite x (6 ppm Cl- / 1 ppm nitrite) = 30 ppm Cl-

ppm = mg / L

(30 mg / L chloride) x 529 L = 15876 mg Chloride = 15.9 grams Chloride

(15.9 g Cl)/(35.45 g Cl / mol Cl) = 0.45 mol Cl

(0.45 mol Cl) x (1 mol NaCl / 1 mol Cl) x (58.44 g / 1 mol NaCl) = 26.3 g NaCl

26.3 grams = 0.93 ounces

ADD ABOUT 1 OUNCE OF SALT FOR THE WHOLE 140 GALLONS

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 12:42 AM
Final question. Do I do a water change after putting the salt in? Or can I leave the saltwater in the tank?
1/2 ounce per gallon will give you a Na+ concentration of 1475 ppm Na+ and your total TDS from JUST the salt will be almost 4000 ppm. I'm pretty sure that's way too high for the plants, but you can try it.

Tilapia can handle highly saline solutions, but had your fish been anything else they likely would have died. LUCKY!

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 12:49 AM
Before I continue I must comment... Your avatar is awesome!


Does anyone know if growing peas and other nitrogen fixing plants such as beans affect nitrite levels? My system is two months old and I'm having issues with unreadable nitrite levels. Last test: Ammonia 0, Nitrite > 5, Nitrate 160. Temp 82 and pH 7.8.

My tilapia are starting to suffer and no matter how many water changes I do I can't seem to get my Nitrites down. I have peas, beans, yellow peppers and lettuce growing (14 plants) and duckweed.

I have recently increased the amount of feed they're getting because they're approaching 4 inches.

Any advice? :?:
The nitrite is coming from either the ammonia or the nitrate. Typically, it flows from ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, but in anaerobic conditions it may flow from nitrate back to nitrite. Any spots that accumulate a lot of organic matter with little water movement could be breeding grounds for some anaerobic bacteria.

Otherwise, the legumes (beans and peas and such) are not your source of nitrite. Nitrogen fixation from these plants/bacteria yield ammonia.

N2 + 8 H+ + 8 e? ? 2 NH3 + H2

foodchain
11-18-2011, 05:42 AM
I am confused on your salt ratio recomendations, and on the tilapia not being able to tolerate anything higher. My tilapia, now in for the winter are in considerably higher concentrations with apparantly no ill effects. Also both the Univ. of HI, and the UVI are currently conducting studies on, and breeding programs for tilapia in brackish and sea water. I am sure I the PDF on that around here if you want it. I just have to find it.

foodchain
11-18-2011, 06:17 AM
You have to remember smaller fish are far more sensitive than larger fish to water quality and changes.
Yes, the salt and increased DO is the cure for brown blood disease. Lowering your temp in theory would allow your water to hold more DO. Warmer the water the less it holds. It also slows down the metabolism of the fish, they will eat less, poop less. The salt does a lot of different things, all good ones for them. Not gonna get into all that. IF you intend to do 20-30% water changes, I wouldn't worry too much about salting again, unless meant as a preventative, but space these water changes out. The fish have to get used to the new concentrations every time. The idea is to dillute it back out, so the plants will like the water again. Salt will not evaporate, so as the water evaporates the water will slowly get saltier, you have a very very very low concentration. So not much of a concern but none the less a concept you need to understand if ever put in this position again. NO SUDDEN CHANGES. Which, if you are going to keep fish long term you will more than likely have this run in again at some point. But now you know how to fix it. The purpose of this was to buy your filter time to build up the bacteria. That's it. So, if you start doing small water changes, it will dillute out both the salt, and the nitrates and will ease the fish back into a more 'normal' for lack of better terms water. Salt in system is not a bad thing though, as long as plants can tolerate it. Some folks keep it in there all the time. I don't as my strawberries don't like it....at all. But my wintering over tanks get salted. Keep the aeration up, and the temp down and really light feedings...the more you feed, the more they mess, the higher the pollution in the system which you are trying to compensate for now. It's a cycle. A big circle called the nitrogen cycle, you have to allow the bacteria to build, and break down the pollutants that the fish, fish waste, and what not build up. Maybe overally simplified here. But that's the basics. Studies have proven though, and yes I can find the PDF on this too if anyone needs it, that prolonged exposure to brown blood disease has negative effects on fertility. So the faster you get it fixed, and the faster you understand the WHY's behind it the better off your goona be.
I only wish I was a fish Jesus. I know what I know, cuz I have killed thousands of fish in making mistakes, and in testing out the WHY's, How Come's, and What does this do? Ideas that I have had. There's lots of data available online, but it only goes as far as someone has documented. I am not a biologist, but I have volumes of marine biology and fisheries texts. Some is dated, and I don't know all the scientific processes and terms. But I have learned you learn far more by actually doing it, putting the hands on, and losing a few....than from the book. Remember too, just cus someone tells you something, or you read it online doesn't mean it's true or real. ALWAYS do more research, google, etc to verify. If you see the same answer in enough places then you start having a direction. I am not saying anything bad about anyone, or anything like that. Just saying it's your money, your fish....always verify. That's why I told you it was brown blood disease upfront, so that you could google the treatments for it. There's a lot of data out on this.

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 11:24 AM
I am confused on your salt ratio recommendations, and on the tilapia not being able to tolerate anything higher. My tilapia, now in for the winter are in considerably higher concentrations with apparently no ill effects. Also both the Univ. of HI, and the UVI are currently conducting studies on, and breeding programs for tilapia in brackish and sea water. I am sure I the PDF on that around here if you want it. I just have to find it.
No no no, I said Tilapia CAN handle highly saline solutions. Some tilapia species can handle hypersaline solutions, in fact.

However, some fish don't have much of a tolerance for it. You see, the histology of a Tilapia gill reveals it has specialized cells to handle the chloride ions that enter their body due to osmoregulation. Their internal body chemistry also adapts to the saline conditions. Try that with say... goldfish (just a guess) and you won't see anywhere NEAR the salt tolerance.

foodchain
11-18-2011, 11:36 AM
True, goldfish especially any of the fancier breeds can only tolerate that stuff for short periods of time. Usually meant for parasite control or treatment. Excellent for anchorworm. However, my experience has been that adding SOME salt especially when breeding or with incubation works in favor of higher hatchings and lower mortality. Again, I can't prove that it's the salt, there's too many variables at play. But I believe that some is better than none...as long as you plant appropriately for whatever concentration you use. I know my peach trees, orange tree, and apples like a LITTLE salt when we move them....seems to eliviate leaf drop and such. But I have no measurements for this. For those I measure by the handfull....I know not very scientific.

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 11:39 AM
You have to remember smaller fish are far more sensitive than larger fish to water quality and changes.
Yes, the salt and increased DO is the cure for brown blood disease. Lowering your temp in theory would allow your water to hold more DO. Warmer the water the less it holds. It also slows down the metabolism of the fish, they will eat less, poop less. The salt does a lot of different things, all good ones for them. Not gonna get into all that. IF you intend to do 20-30% water changes, I wouldn't worry too much about salting again, unless meant as a preventative, but space these water changes out. The fish have to get used to the new concentrations every time. The idea is to dillute it back out, so the plants will like the water again. Salt will not evaporate, so as the water evaporates the water will slowly get saltier, you have a very very very low concentration. So not much of a concern but none the less a concept you need to understand if ever put in this position again. NO SUDDEN CHANGES. Which, if you are going to keep fish long term you will more than likely have this run in again at some point. But now you know how to fix it. The purpose of this was to buy your filter time to build up the bacteria. That's it. So, if you start doing small water changes, it will dillute out both the salt, and the nitrates and will ease the fish back into a more 'normal' for lack of better terms water. Salt in system is not a bad thing though, as long as plants can tolerate it. Some folks keep it in there all the time. I don't as my strawberries don't like it....at all. But my wintering over tanks get salted. Keep the aeration up, and the temp down and really light feedings...the more you feed, the more they mess, the higher the pollution in the system which you are trying to compensate for now. It's a cycle. A big circle called the nitrogen cycle, you have to allow the bacteria to build, and break down the pollutants that the fish, fish waste, and what not build up. Maybe overally simplified here. But that's the basics. Studies have proven though, and yes I can find the PDF on this too if anyone needs it, that prolonged exposure to brown blood disease has negative effects on fertility. So the faster you get it fixed, and the faster you understand the WHY's behind it the better off your goona be.
I only wish I was a fish Jesus. I know what I know, cuz I have killed thousands of fish in making mistakes, and in testing out the WHY's, How Come's, and What does this do? Ideas that I have had. There's lots of data available online, but it only goes as far as someone has documented. I am not a biologist, but I have volumes of marine biology and fisheries texts. Some is dated, and I don't know all the scientific processes and terms. But I have learned you learn far more by actually doing it, putting the hands on, and losing a few....than from the book. Remember too, just cus someone tells you something, or you read it online doesn't mean it's true or real. ALWAYS do more research, google, etc to verify. If you see the same answer in enough places then you start having a direction. I am not saying anything bad about anyone, or anything like that. Just saying it's your money, your fish....always verify. That's why I told you it was brown blood disease upfront, so that you could google the treatments for it. There's a lot of data out on this.
(as I mentioned previous) methemoglobinemia = brown blood disease = nitrite bonding with hemoglobin = fish "drowning"

It's one thing to discuss fish in aquaculture, but it's another to give sound advice regarding treatments in aquaponic systems. As I mentioned before as well, what about the plants? I hope I'm getting my numbers right, but the vast majority of plants do not do well passed 6-8 ppt of dissolved solids (TDS). So, having 4000 ppm salt = 4 ppt salt = having some plants die on you. You can always try it, but how much salt are in your tanks and what are you growing?

I had a discussion with the head horticulturalist at Disney for their aquaponic system, and they will not exceed (roughly) 50 ppm sodium in their solution (water). According to their experience, it burns up the plants or makes them grow poorly with signs of distress. Of course, this is species specific, but generally for most cultivated species of plants, this is true.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some things in science have been researched and experimented on thousands of times and some things only a few dozen. As time goes on, the few dozen turns into hundreds, and so on. That is what being a good scientist/researcher is all about. However, I do understand your perspective. Google is just a search engine. It's up to you to determine the source. Reading an article at http://www.WeSellAquaticSalt.com is probably not going to give you an objective perspective. I prefer to read actual research, books that are simply compiled research, or textbooks on the subject (not REGULAR books, textbooks). I of course read "regular" books on the subjects as well, but I take everything with a grain of salt and check their references if something doesn't match up with my scientific knowledge.

With that said, WELCOME TO THE FORUM! You will do just fine here. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK. LEARN. SHARE. LEARN MORE BY SHARING.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

foodchain
11-18-2011, 11:42 AM
I am sorry. I thought he said there was NO plants in the system. Did I miss read?

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 11:43 AM
I am sorry. I thought he said there was NO plants in the system. Did I miss read?
The title of the thread implies differently... :lol: :mrgreen: :lol:

Don't worry, I do that all the time. I misread and then post on something that is completely irrelevant!!! :oops:

foodchain
11-18-2011, 11:51 AM
Okay. I screwed up...."My tilapia are starting to suffer and no matter how many water changes I do I can't seem to get my Nitrites down. I have peas, beans, yellow peppers and lettuce growing (14 plants) and duckweed.

I have recently increased the amount of feed they're getting because they're approaching 4 inches. "
But in going back and rereading it, I think I found a MAJOR contributing factor to what is causing this....the increased feed.

To answer your previous posts, I don't grow anything off the salted tanks during winter. I bring the tilapia in for wintering over, and overstock them in 330 gallon tanks for the winter (+/- 2 months) Then start moving them back outside. The catfish, sunfish, bass, etc stay outside year round. My prawns are harvested end of every summer, and I purchase post larvae or juvies in early spring. They are a 4-5 month crop for me. Hope that clarifies.

foodchain
11-18-2011, 12:00 PM
I really gotta slow down. I know what I mean to say, but in rereading this series of posts I am coming off as blooming idiot. Maybe I just need to have some quiet time.

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 12:12 PM
I really gotta slow down. I know what I mean to say, but in rereading this series of posts I am coming off as blooming idiot. Maybe I just need to have some quiet time.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

No not at all, it's exciting to come share your information, but you have to definitely think on how to present it. I think that's the one skill that is most important on the forum (and I'm still learning and screwing it up), but you will get the hang of it!

Also realize, any "mistakes" like that will hopefully be caught by someone else and then it can become a learning experience for EVERYONE that reads the post. A lot of "basic" information is repeated over and over on the forum, but people don't sit there and read through everything anyway; so, that's not a BAD thing.

Try having some quiet time before you post that way everything has a chance to settle down in your mind. Sometimes, re-read the post you are replying to before you post as well. In writing, we get off track!

foodchain
11-18-2011, 12:17 PM
HA...there's a new thread. Loose Canon 101.

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 12:24 PM
HA...there's a new thread. Loose Canon 101.
Been there, done that, got the t-shirt my friend! :lol:

foodchain
11-18-2011, 01:24 PM
Now I do know that peas/beans are in the legume family I think it is, and I read somewhere I think it was in an old gardening book from sunset gardens that those are used for improving the soil as they put nitrogen and stuff back into the soil.....I wonder if this has any measurable impacts on AP since the purpose is to pull it out rather than put it back? Beans here are super easy to grow, and grow just about everywhere down here in TX. I am sure that helps with them being a good choice for AP, but I don't know how much of this is myth vs reality. Alfalfa is supposed to improve soil too, but can have massive root system. I think I am going to expand my water kit and start taking more readings just to see what's going on at different parts of the day. After all, isn't that how they found out DO drops off to it's lowest point at somewhere around 3AM-5AM? Something like that, it was super early morning, like predawn, and all the DO levels in ponds, lakes, etc drop dramatically. I think I saw that in Southern Region Aquaculture Association PDF's. I can probably find it. Just escapes me at the moment.

jrlevers
11-18-2011, 05:19 PM
Wow I go to work for one day and come back to a thousand posts. Lol.

I realize I probably overdosed with salt but the tilapia were as vigorous as ever this morning when I came home. I did a 50% water change just to be safe and there has been no evidence of stress whatsoever.

For me AP is more about the fish than the veggies (however fresh produce in winter is a bonus) so if I lose a few plants or all, I won't be crushed.

urbanfarmer
11-18-2011, 06:52 PM
Wow I go to work for one day and come back to a thousand posts. Lol.

I realize I probably overdosed with salt but the tilapia were as vigorous as ever this morning when I came home. I did a 50% water change just to be safe and there has been no evidence of stress whatsoever.

For me AP is more about the fish than the veggies (however fresh produce in winter is a bonus) so if I lose a few plants or all, I won't be crushed.
Yea, I started out thinking that too. Who wants to eat vegetables? However, the majority of the production will always come from the vegetables. There's just no way around it. You can minimize the vegetable production, but then you're just making waste.

foodchain
11-19-2011, 07:56 PM
Just out of curioustiy, WHY NOT?
Polyculture allows for dense production of multiple species in the same water. Plants grow faster, so you will have more produce I suppose.
But more in volume, doesn't mean limited selection of the higher protein and aquatics selection. I am doing this now, and am experimenting with higher densities. The plants and media simply filters out the ammonia/nitrates. Just saying....

urbanfarmer
11-20-2011, 11:46 AM
You mean why not get more production from the fish? I was just pointing out it takes longer (let's say a year) to grow out a pound to pound and a half of fish vs. a few months for the same production of vegetables. Unless you are removing solids or using denitrification, etc., to remove the waste products then you will need more plants to uptake these toxins/nutrients. There's a "minimum ratio" between the plants and fish unless you are throwing out wastes, and the "minimum ratio" will still produce more plant mass than fish mass.

OR, think about it like this. The fish NEED you to find an energy source for them whereas the plants have a free and nearly unlimited energy source. The plants produce more nutrients, vitamins, and minerals for humans and in greater quantity.

My brain is tired today so I hope I wrote that in a way that makes sense??

foodchain
11-21-2011, 05:38 AM
You are absolutely correct in the timeline, greens grow faster than the fish do. They are cheaper, faster, and easier. Fish are funner, least I think so especially when you mix multiple species into a poly format maximizing production off othe same volume of water. Polyculture has been linked to more of a symbiotic relationship, even if unintentional between Tilapia and Prawns. So there are pros and cons both ways.

urbanfarmer
11-21-2011, 09:27 AM
Yes, the literature consistently describes polyculture as a means of maximizing a system's production. I don't know much about it though. Maybe you could start a thread and tell us about yours and how it's done in the past, etc?? :-D

foodchain
11-21-2011, 01:06 PM
I am not sure anyone would be too interested. Some people are already doing it, and don't know it. I suppose I should. Let me get myself organized and put together something that's not ramblings/grunts/whistles, etc and see if I can get some pictures...It's winter though...um, maybe find something so I can illustrate it. Okay Urban, I can do it...just give me some time. Scatter brained right now.

Basil1
11-21-2011, 02:08 PM
Would also be interested in hearing about this.

Madmax478
12-03-2011, 07:15 PM
Dose anyone think adding Store Bought Aquarium bacteria to this system would help? I was talking to a fellow that double dose his fresh water aquarium to straiten out his 100 gallon aquarium. He said it always straiten out his water test to where he wanted them with in 48 to 72 hours.

I have never tried it myself. It sounds like it might work though.

urbanfarmer
12-03-2011, 11:00 PM
Dose anyone think adding Store Bought Aquarium bacteria to this system would help?
Nope.

AT BEST, and if the product you buy is of decent quality... Well, it's a short term solution for a long term problem. You would have to dose regularly.

The right bacteria are free. Just balance your system the right way and you won't have a need to use these kinds of short term fixes.

ANALOGY: It's like filling your tire with air every morning before you drive it as a fix for a small hole in the tire. Balancing your system is like replacing the tire or patching the hole.

keith_r
12-04-2011, 07:51 AM
don't use aquaria chemicals in AP.. most are not recommended for fish that you plan to eat..
the "bacteria in a bottle" are not what you are looking for..
as uf says, a balanced system won't have problems, so it's best to troubleshoot specific issues..

Madmax478
12-04-2011, 01:11 PM
ANALOGY: It's like filling your tire with air every morning before you drive it as a fix for a small hole in the tire. Balancing your system is like replacing the tire or patching the hole.

Ok but would you agree it would buy you enough time, to get you the answer you need, from a form like this. Hopefully with out losing to many fish.

urbanfarmer
12-04-2011, 02:17 PM
ANALOGY: It's like filling your tire with air every morning before you drive it as a fix for a small hole in the tire. Balancing your system is like replacing the tire or patching the hole.

Ok but would you agree it would buy you enough time, to get you the answer you need, from a form like this. Hopefully with out losing to many fish.
At the risk of not giving you the answer you want, it depends. The conditions in your water will dictate how well the bacteria you are adding will do. They might get their lunch money stolen and beaten up on day 1 or they could take hold and do very well in your system for much longer. If you want to try it, try it. I have tried a few brands myself. Some seem to do nothing while others seem to have some positive results in the short term. I will never bother buying another bottle of any brand again because it's just silly, but if you have an emergency you might as well try it.

Let us know what happens! ;)

Madmax478
12-04-2011, 06:29 PM
ANALOGY: It's like filling your tire with air every morning before you drive it as a fix for a small hole in the tire. Balancing your system is like replacing the tire or patching the hole.

Ok but would you agree it would buy you enough time, to get you the answer you need, from a form like this. Hopefully with out losing to many fish.
At the risk of not giving you the answer you want, it depends. The conditions in your water will dictate how well the bacteria you are adding will do. They might get their lunch money stolen and beaten up on day 1 or they could take hold and do very well in your system for much longer. If you want to try it, try it. I have tried a few brands myself. Some seem to do nothing while others seem to have some positive results in the short term. I will never bother buying another bottle of any brand again because it's just silly, but if you have an emergency you might as well try it.

Let us know what happens! ;)

I think I tend to agree with you on that... I have more than one system running now. So I'd rather get bacteria from a Know Good system and add it to a new system having trouble. If I didn't I think I go get some from a friend that has a Know good Fresh water Aquarium. I would still rather it be another healthy AP system if that was possible.