PVC leaches toxins

[urbanfarmer]

Well, disturbing but true... I just learned in class that PVC along with other plastics readily leach toxins. PCB and DEHP are among the many toxins leached out. Not only has my professor done ample studies on the subject, but several of my classmates have jobs where they routinely monitor for these pollutants and they have described their experiences and findings. It is quite alarming to think we're throwing potentially dangerous materials into our systems. The plants definitely absorb these toxins (they are found less in the fruits of plants), but I wonder how much can be found in fish since they rely on the water for osmoregulation... SCARY. Well, I won't bring any of this to the "public" attention because I think our fellow aquapons may lose their organic certifications! :(

For instance, DEP and DEHP are far less prevalent in soil because the soil has the ability to "clean up" the toxins. The good news is some of these toxins only have noticeable side effects on women and children! :lol: (but that's only the ones I have just heard about and there may be unknown effects yet to be discovered)

[davidstcldfl]

Don't forget lead.....the fittings have more then the pipe. The newer pvc's are being made to have less.
Did they mention cpvc pipe and fittings....?


The good news is some of these toxins only have noticeable side effects on women and children! (but that's only the ones I have just heard about and there may be unknown effects yet to be discovered)

:lol: ....My mother drank out of 'old school' steel pipes.... you younger guys might wonder if your mom drank from pvc pipes before you were born ... :o ... :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate

Smaller penis size and other feminizing linksDEHP metabolites measured from the blood of pregnant women have been significantly associated with the decreased penis width, shorter anogenital distance, and the incomplete descent of testes of their newborn sons, replicating effects identified in animals.[6] Approximately 25% of US women have phthalate levels similar to those in the study.[6]

[cedarswamp]

If your plumbing was installed pre-1988 or there abouts your copper pipes were most likely soldered with lead bearing solder anyway. Water lines at one time were made of lead. How come folks seemed to live longer back then?

[JCO]

They lived longer because they raised their own foods free of poisons :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

if you look into it a little bit, you'll find that pvc is acceptable for "cold" potable water..
not that i'm using any hot water for heating the ft, but if i was, i'd use cpvc

[davidstcldfl]

Not only has my professor done ample studies on the subject, but several of my classmates have jobs where they routinely monitor for these pollutants and they have described their experiences and findings. It is quite alarming to think we're throwing potentially dangerous materials into our systems.
UF...Kieth has brought up a valid point, about the water temp flowing through 'pvc' pipe . Can you find out if you proffesor has any data related to 'water temps' in his testing ?

[urbanfarmer]

Assuming this is 100% true in plumbing it in your house, but bacteria break it down and cause the toxins to leach as well. Also, the sun does substantially too. We're talking about PVC applications in AQUAPONICS not in your house.

You guys haven't had any PVC pipes go brittle on you or any PVC pond liner? I have. That means the toxins have leached, oops!

Yes, I can ask about that, but lastly keep in mind "acceptable" might mean the studies the mfr put out stated the amount of toxins leached were "minimal" and acceptable risk. Here in the US we do RISK MANAGEMENT meaning we allow a certain amount of harmful things to occur as long as it's a "calculated risk" factor low enough to justify it. Right? :mrgreen: Moreover, our systems are closed systems... they accumulate toxins, heavy metals, pesticides, etc... which is why we don't put them in! Lets compare apples to apples here (and I understand there is no research for our specific application).

[urbanfarmer]

Don't forget lead.....the fittings have more then the pipe. The newer pvc's are being made to have less.
Did they mention cpvc pipe and fittings....?


The good news is some of these toxins only have noticeable side effects on women and children! (but that's only the ones I have just heard about and there may be unknown effects yet to be discovered)

:lol: ....My mother drank out of 'old school' steel pipes.... you younger guys might wonder if your mom drank from pvc pipes before you were born ... :o ... :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bis(2-ethylhexyl)_phthalate

Smaller penis size and other feminizing linksDEHP metabolites measured from the blood of pregnant women have been significantly associated with the decreased penis width, shorter anogenital distance, and the incomplete descent of testes of their newborn sons, replicating effects identified in animals.[6] Approximately 25% of US women have phthalate levels similar to those in the study.[6]

Yea, I saw those. That doesn't really affect your health. Having a small penis won't kill you, right [insert butt of joke name]? :lol:

[keith_r]

pvc is considered the "least toxic" (at least by greenpeace)

http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pv ... e/bad.html (http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html)

[urbanfarmer]

pvc is considered the "least toxic" (at least by greenpeace)

http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pv ... e/bad.html (http://archive.greenpeace.org/toxics/pvcdatabase/bad.html)
Did I read that wrong? It shows it as the most toxic... It says PE is the best (aside from bio based plastics).

Again the issues are the additives. I am going to opt for virgin PE with a high mil thickness. It can degrade in the sun, but if it's covered right it might be the best option.

As far as the pipes... I'm still thinking... It also depends on the mfr of the product...


The pyramid of plastics is a ranking of plastics according to their hazardous characteristics. PVC, the most problematic plastic, is at the top of the pyramid, and biobased plastics, the least polluting of the plastics, are at the pyramid's base.

Keith are you smoking the funny tobacco again???

[keith_r]

ha.. again?
you're right.. i was in a hurry and didn't get out what i meant..
been busy at work, did a "day trip" to dearborn mi (right outside detroit) - for a "depressed" area, there sure was lots of activity

[urbanfarmer]

;)

[badflash]

UF, I think you believe anything you read. This whole thing is a bunch of hoowee. Put up or shut up with real results. Don't give me stuff just designed to tear down the 1st world. Don't give me crap like took tetracycline off the market. Nobody soaks babies in 100 time the normal dose 24 hours a day. Tell me what the effect is for normal water usage is.

I get so tired of reports from crackpots that say everything is dangerous. Give me some real proof!

If you dunk someone under water for just 5 minutes they die. Let's ban water!

[Madmax478]

Well if PVC isn't what we should use in our systems. What kinda of pipe do you suggest as and alt?

[urbanfarmer]

Well if PVC isn't what we should use in our systems. What kinda of pipe do you suggest as and alt?
To be honest, we're not quite to the point of concluding PVC is bad. You see, we live in a world where we're surrounded by toxins and pollutants on a daily basis. Our governments establish safe guidelines for poisoning us, which is called risk assessment. In other words, a review of the composition of PVC and a literature review of available research on the toxins in questions would yield an answer. It is possible to produce plastics/PVC without the toxins in question; so, it is up to us to find out what's in our PVC (if anything).

Some folks at the aquaponics conference did use alternatives to PVC. They said it was not cost effective though.

Back in the 60's some hippies built aquaponic systems without plastic or concrete. They built them naturally in the ground (so am I told). I aspire to one day mimic this design.

[rfeiller]

i was warned almost 30 yrs ago that pvc leached toxins into water the more dionized the water the greater the leaching problem. this was by the an engineer that supervised the processing of ultra purified water for the mfg of computer chips. no mattter how you rationalize it closed systems are not healthy, my systems are not closed and the veggies do just fine, there is a 40% water change each week.

[ButtonLife]

This kind of worries me a bit. Was planning on using PVC in my new AP system. Should I look more towards aquarium tubing? (have 20+ ft already).

[keith_r]

i'm going to continue to use pvc..
but it's probably a personal decision

[badflash]

The whole thing is a scare tactic. Oxygen is more toxic than PVC. Gonna stop breathing? The crackpots that are trying to scare us about PVC claim that even though the chemicals that leach out are in concentrations too small to measure, they are causing huge amounts of unrecognized damage. Sounds like th boogey man to me.

I've used it for years. Hundreds of generations of tilapia and no issues.

[cedarswamp]

How long have we been wrapping our food and meats in flexible pvc(Saran wrap)?

Much ado about nothing IMHO Ya wanna live forever?

[urbanfarmer]

How long have we been wrapping our food and meats in flexible pvc(Saran wrap)?

Much ado about nothing IMHO Ya wanna live forever?
The Romans made all their water pipes out of pure lead. Many died from lead poisoning. It seemed like a good idea at the time! :lol:

They also prepared their wine and other things in lead. Lead was a byproduct of silver mining; so, it was readily available.

[cedarswamp]

How long have we been wrapping our food and meats in flexible pvc(Saran wrap)?

Much ado about nothing IMHO Ya wanna live forever?
The Romans made all their water pipes out of pure lead. Many died from lead poisoning. It seemed like a good idea at the time! :lol:

They also prepared their wine and other things in lead. Lead was a byproduct of silver mining; so, it was readily available.


America used lead water pipes in the early 1900's some of them still in use today.

[rfeiller]

i use to do structural sismic retrofits of historical buildings her in the San Jose, CA area. a couple of the buildings had lead water pipes. i don't know if that is the reason for some of the decisions made in the city offices here or not! :lol:

[davidstcldfl]

i use to do structural sismic retrofits of historical buildings her in the San Jose, CA area. a couple of the buildings had lead water pipes. i don't know if that is the reason for some of the decisions made in the city offices here or not! :lol:
That and their hats may be a bit too tight !

When I was in school for the union....they had some water pipes from an old farm, that were 'wood'.
I guess if you had the right wood, like cypress, they'd probably last, as long as they stayed 'wet'.

[rfeiller]

The mad hatter! :lol:

[davidstcldfl]

The mad hatter! :lol:
:?: ....you must be talking about Basil1 's new avatar...'?'

[nickjacob]

Luckily there is a replacement for pvc that is healthier for you and the system HDPE pipe. I just did some research and It is a lot better than PVC. IT is somewhat competitive with pvc and is by no means unreasonable.