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tayl0r
06-01-2009, 02:54 AM
A local tilapia breeder had a little workshop today and myself, Ernie, and my brother were in attendance. One of the things the breeder was saying was to use 500 mg of Vitamin C per 50 gallons of water to remove chlorine and chloramines.
Sounds too good to be true, right? She swears by this method though, and uses normal tap water without any filters or other chemicals.
I'm definitely going to try it.

Another interesting thing was her opinion on the minimum water depth you should use for your Tilapia fish tank. She recommended 36". Any less and the fish will try to jump out. I believe Ernie experienced that first hand.

She was also using plastic garden screen as bio filtration material as opposed to the plastic specifically made for aquatics.. It's sold at most hardware stores and you can find it in 15' long rolls. She just buys some of them, leaves them rolled up, and drops them straight in a 55g barrel. Very easy bio-filter.

badflash
06-01-2009, 06:33 AM
I'll try some experiments to see, but I doubt seriously that citric acid is effective against chloramines. Chlorine, for sure, but in order to take out chloramines, you need to break the amine bond ,then take out both chlorine and ammonia.

Rocky Mountain White are a great fish, but I'd be astonished if they are legal in California. These are a hybrid of the Auria and the Nile, both of which are forbidden. As far as I know, only the O. mossambica are allowed.

Water depth is not directly related to tilapia jumping out. I keep mine in tanks far more shallow than 36". When tilapia jump out it is nearly always the result of aggressive behavior. Water depth won't make any difference. A larger tank may if the offended party can get away. A lid is the best, period. Keeps the fish in, keep fish eaters out.

Plastic garden screen, or any compound that won't break down but allows water to flow over it is an effective biofiltration substrate. I use scrubby pads. I also use bio balls, and kaldnes. They all work the same way. The problem with most of these is they clog up and have to be cleaned. Using a particulate filter up front help a lot. Kaldnes is interesting as is the aquacube as neither will clog.

badflash
06-01-2009, 08:51 AM
Check http://www.dfg.ca.gov/licensing/pdffiles/fg1518.pdf and search "tilapia" for the restricted species. Both Nile and Aurea are not allowed.

As I said before, Rocky Mountain White is a cross between the two and so would also be prohibited. Great fish, but special permits would be required and would not likely be granted.

tayl0r
06-01-2009, 11:11 AM
Our water definitely has chloramines, so I wonder if the amount is just so small that it isn't harmful to the fish?

http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/t ... cess.shtml (http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/treatmentprocess.shtml)

Chlorine is added to the water as the primary disinfectant to prevent illness due to water-borne pathogens. The final barrier is the addition of ammonia to the water to react with chlorine and form chloramines. Cloramines are used to maintain a residual disinfectant throughout the water distribution system to ensure water quality to the consumerís tap.

badflash
06-01-2009, 12:58 PM
This is great news! Thanks for the links. It does look well documented, especially good seems sodium ascorbate which has little effect on pH.

tayl0r
06-01-2009, 01:27 PM
In that first link you posted Ernie (removal.pdf), the last question is regarding aquarium water. They don't say to use Vitamin C for that purpose... I wonder why?

badflash
06-01-2009, 03:40 PM
In other links they do, but say that sodium ascorbate is better as it has little effect on pH. You need to be more careful with dosing of vitamin C. Sodium ascorbate is buffered, so keeps things neutral.

I need to stick with my Kold Sterile though, as chloramines are the least of my worries. I have transformer oil, MBTE and other hydrocarbons in my water.

tayl0r
06-01-2009, 03:50 PM
All this stuff makes me want to go back to college and get a degree in agriculture =)

badflash
06-01-2009, 05:07 PM
You won't find that stuff in school...

badflash
06-05-2009, 09:41 AM
I ordered a pound of sodium ascorbate. That should last me for years and set me back all of about $20 including shipping.

BTW- Sounds like the workshop you went to was done my a friend of mine Sheri, AKA Tilapia Mama. Am I right? She an I got into tilapia about the same time and got to know each other through Mike Sipe. I've invited her to come & join here, but she hasn't yet :(

I asked her how it was legal for her to have RMW tilapia. Her legal answer is that in a recirculating aquarium setup they are pets and so not regulated. If she was to sell the fish commercially it would be different. For personal use, you are probably fine, but if you are thinking of selling fish for eating, you should find out the rules for your self.

jackalope
06-10-2009, 09:10 PM
My wife just happened to have some ascorbic acid handy, so I've been using it since it was first posted ...... I have to add about 10 gallons every couple of days, and I've had no ill effects on the guppies or 'dads ;) You can get ascorbic acid in the health-food section of the grocery store ;)

badflash
06-11-2009, 04:40 PM
I got my sodium ascorbate today. I tested my water and it has .5 ppm chloramines. I drew out a gallon and took a small pinch of sodium ascorbate and added it to the water mixed well then tested.

0 ppm chloramine. Myth Confirmed!

Well done folks!

wolfracer
06-11-2009, 06:03 PM
I got my sodium ascorbate today. I tested my water and it has .5 ppm chloramines. I drew out a gallon and took a small pinch of sodium ascorbate and added it to the water mixed well then tested.

0 ppm chloramine. Myth Confirmed!

Well done folks!
Awesome !

First question where did you get it (sodium ascorbate )?
Second question What test kit do you have that tests for chloramines and where can I get it?

badflash
06-11-2009, 07:06 PM
http://www.iherb.com/NutriBiotic-Sodium ... 10178?at=0

Please use referral code UDE519, and you get $5 off.

I get some bennies on my next order if you do :mrgreen:

Lifegard Chlorine/Chloramine Test Strips are what I'm using. Really easy to use and accurate.
http://www.aquatichouse.com/test%20kits.asp

wolfracer
06-12-2009, 07:29 AM
Thanks, this may solve some water hauling issues I have.

badflash
06-12-2009, 10:20 AM
Yes, add 1/8 tsp to a 55 gal drum, fill it with a hose & pump it to the sump. Another way would be to turn off your pump, add it to the sump and fill the sump with the hose, mix & turn on the pump.

mommyhen42
06-21-2009, 01:30 PM
Wow, see what I miss when I have been gone for so long... I am shocked
I just bought a 2.2 lb container of Chlorine remover for pools and spas when I could have just bought Vit C???
Who would have thought vitamin C could do that?
We have Chloramines here too but so fa,r apparently not enough to be of any problem but, with summer being here I have been worried, now I will just drop a tab into the ponds whenever I top them off.
I may still use the chlorine remover anyway since you can smell the chlorine when you turn on the tap.
I would never think to drink our water straight from the tap, thank goodness for the reverse osmosis machines at the grocery store or I would never drink water.. LOL

jackalope
06-21-2009, 01:52 PM
Wow, see what I miss when I have been gone for so long... I am shocked
I just bought a 2.2 lb container of Chlorine remover for pools and spas when I could have just bought Vit C???
Who would have thought vitamin C could do that?
We have Chloramines here too but so fa,r apparently not enough to be of any problem but, with summer being here I have been worried, now I will just drop a tab into the ponds whenever I top them off.
I may still use the chlorine remover anyway since you can smell the chlorine when you turn on the tap.
I would never think to drink our water straight from the tap, thank goodness for the reverse osmosis machines at the grocery store or I would never drink water.. LOL

Welcome back young lady ..... hope all is well with you, glad to see you again ;)

aquaarche
03-02-2010, 01:47 AM
believe it or not shredded Mylar potato chip bags, Shredded PVC (do not use those flimsy plastic bags from the grocery store they are not the right kind of plastic) stuff that is an old fishnet stocking place in a 2" pipe 16" long reduced a each end. You have your own recyclable material bio filter.

jackalope
03-04-2010, 01:14 PM
believe it or not shredded Mylar potato chip bags, Shredded PVC (do not use those flimsy plastic bags from the grocery store they are not the right kind of plastic) stuff that is an old fishnet stocking place in a 2" pipe 16" long reduced a each end. You have your own recyclable material bio filter.

Good point! I'm working on something similar myself, although I need it for a 500 gallon tank!

aquaarche
03-08-2010, 09:48 PM
I guess you could also create a frame to cross a whole section of a bio clarification tank. 12in wide wide 3 feet across by 3 feet deep just be sure to make it fit tightly using silicone or other sealer, so as you pump water out of the bio clarification tank it draws water only through the filter. Use stiff netting type material on each side fill with shredded Mylar and other plastics learning to pack it to the right density will benefit. make an outer frame siliconed to the tank and an inner frames to slide into place with rubber making the seal tight and making it easier to remove for cleaning

It is a way we can take and use materials normally going to fill a land fill and recycling them to filter biomass from our water. you can also set it up and let water free fall by gravity through a bio filter and it would also airiate the water at the same time.

I was researching the bio filter that a lot of companies sell and what I found was the material is nothing more that fibered spun plastics with just fancy names to make you think it was something special. I figured I could recycle Mylar snack bags and do just as well.

be careful using asorbic acid types of Vitamin C it will lower your pH so be sure to always test your water seems 6.5-7.0 pH does well for most plants

Lance517
06-26-2014, 08:59 PM
I'll try some experiments to see, but I doubt seriously that citric acid is effective against chloramines. Chlorine, for sure, but in order to take out chloramines, you need to break the amine bond ,then take out both chlorine and ammonia.



You mean Ascorbic Acid right ? ;)
In any case, without showing all the chemical structures and equation balancing the reaction goes like this:
Ascorbic acid + Chloramine ? Dehydroascorbic acid + Ammonia ? + Chloride

thjakits
10-01-2014, 08:04 AM
Hey Lance,

thanks for the "simplified" chemistry!!

WHERE does the Dehydroascorbic Acid go? Ammonia gets broken down for Plant-food and Chloride evaporates out right?

thjakits 8-)

Lance517
10-01-2014, 09:38 PM
Hi thjakits,
Some ammonia will evolve from the water as a gas (NH3) and the rest stay in solution as Ammonium (NH4+) depending on the pH but there will not be much of it considering that the source of nitrogen is from chloramine which is only 4 parts per million allowable in municipal water according to the EPA. Chloride will stay in solution since it is an ion
(Cl-), if it were Chlorine (Cl2) it would evolve as a gas. As for the DHAA; It enters the metabolic pathways in animals where concentrates in the mitochondria and brain, converts into Ascorbate and functions at protecting cell walls and mitochondrial genome. In plants it is concentrated in the chloroplasts and has a role in photosynthesis.
The AWWA has a five page article on neutralizing chloramines with ascorbic acid and you can read the abstract on line but they charge 20 bucks for the whole paper: http://www.awwa.org/publications/opflow ... 17703.aspx (http://www.awwa.org/publications/opflow/abstract/articleid/17703.aspx)

thjakits
10-02-2014, 09:20 AM
Thanks Lance!

Chloride/chlorine!! Should have paid more attention in chemistry in school - maybe I wouldn't be THAT lost!!
Too bad they want 20 - rather buy a few more bulkhead fittings for that!

So basically what you say is that DHAA is not a bad thing?!

We are in the process to collect bits and parts for a serious backyard system with the express goal to build up basic operations knowledge from ZERO and use it as a test and trial lab with the focus on a hopefully viable commercial set-up later (different site, different layout but same procedures and principals and fauna and flora)
SHOULD we get to the commercial phase we probably will want a biologist on the team to do all the testing and studying the details.

Besides the bits&pieces, we are trying to find out details about local specifics like WHAT does the local water-company use: Chlorine, Chloramine, ....??

Question 1: If I use ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate to condition the water, any damage done if there is NO chloramine to break down? Will the ascorbic acid break down eventually and leave the system or at least "no harm done"?

Is there any specific test kit (that doesn't cost a fortune) to test for Chlorine vs. Chloramine (and possibly other chemicals used in potable water treatment plants)?
[Even if we get an answer from the local water guys - there is always a component of distrust - "local experience over the years... 3:) "!
[Our "research-lab" is supposed to be built in Panama...]


Cheers,

thjakits 8-)

Lance517
10-02-2014, 07:11 PM
Sounds like an awesome venture thjakits, so right now you guys are making something like a prototype ?
Hach has test strips which measure Chlorine from 0 to 10 ppm
http://www.hach.com/free-total-chlorine ... allback=pf (http://www.hach.com/free-total-chlorine-test-strips-0-10-mg-l/product?id=7640211603&callback=pf)
They also have a hand held colorimeter that will test free chlorine and total chlorine..and from I understand chloramine can be determined by the difference of the two.
Culligan has a cheap kit too
https://www.filtersfast.com/P-Culligan- ... st-Kit.asp (https://www.filtersfast.com/P-Culligan-TK-2-Water-Test-Kit.asp)
If you want more accurate results it's best to get a UV-Vis spectrophotmeter, it's probably the cheapest chemistry lab instruments and you can get and it does a whole array of testing including free and total chlorine, it's one of the "workhorses" of our lab. They can be found used on Ebay for cheap.
Other chemicals of concern from water treatment plants are what's called "Disinfection Byproducts" here is a list from the EPA http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants ... oducts.cfm (http://water.epa.gov/drink/contaminants/basicinformation/disinfectionbyproducts.cfm)
These chemicals are more expensive to test for because they require instruments like Ion and Gas Chormatographs. you would probably want a chemistry lab to run those for you ...well at least until the facility in Panama has a lab.
Going back to DHHA; I haven't found any articles in regard to detrimental effects of it but I did find a paper on the degradation of Vitamin C which might be interesting.
http://courses.washington.edu/edtep586/Colleen%20.ppt
Unfortunately I could not open it up because the computer Im using doesn't have Office (I know weird)

JCO
10-02-2014, 09:47 PM
Photos of the project and progress would be greatly helpful and educational to all :mrgreen:

thjakits
10-03-2014, 05:42 AM
Hi all,

Lance, thank you very much for the water-test details! I will check this out!
Initially we will certainly just go with the "economic" test sets - SHOULD the commercial project get of the ground - well, I will push for as much automation as possible, especially on system-environment control (- and in extension, use the data for automatic "disaster" control or at least containment - like in "cut off the problem-part of the system")

JCO, NO hardware has been produced yet, so the only pic would be of the available site - flat spot, partially under trees, with some hill-side further away (25-30m), if necessary!
Furthermore, I am already kind of "compromised" to start a system thread on another forum (I have been pestering these guys with questions a LOT, they want to see something too!)
Once this gets underway, I will have hardly any spare-time at all and still need to get my head around picasa or photobucket or similar.

However, if it is not a no-no on this forum I can cross-link to the thread(s) on the other forum.
Who knows, maybe I'll change the "primary"-forum along this journey, but there are just too many of them to follow and participate in all - (and AP is not the only interest I follow on forums, mind you!)
For now I just cross-post, if this is not acceptable, let me know (mods!) and I edit this post accordingly.

My other "question"-thread is here, including a lengthy "idea/plan-explanation":
"edited by JCO."

[I hope there is no ferocious competition between forums, it's about perfecting AP after all, isn't it?]

Cheers,

thjakits 8-)

JCO
10-03-2014, 06:47 AM
thjakits, you are a welcome voice on our forum, however cross posting with links to other AP forums/sites is not allowed.

I did follow your link to BYA and I noticed that you have made 23 posts there compared to 3 posts on DIY even though you joined both forums the same day.

I also found it strange that you took the time to list where you are from on the BYA forum but not on our forum.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not demanding that you choose between the forums, but I do ask that you understand that there is always a certain amount of jealously between forums.

As for you having other interest in other things and posting on non AP forums, it is apparent you have not actually caught the AP virus/bug as of yet (there is no known cure) or you would actually have no time for any other thoughts or activities.

A true Aquaponist lives, breaths, eats, sleeps, dreams and only has thoughts of nothing but Aquaponics.

I initially learned about Aquaponics in 1967 from a dear friend who passed away long ago.

I have been active in AP ever since with many systems that have come and gone and truly more failures in various methods than successes but the thought of wavering from my addiction has never crossed my mind.

When I discovered Aquaponics, I was raising tropical fish as a hobby, but now my only interest other than Aquaponics is raising KOI and Ryukin Goldfish, which brings me right back to Aquaponics as they are the fish I use for my systems.

Please visit DIY often and post while you are here but remember DIY and BYA are worlds apart. :mrgreen:

thjakits
10-03-2014, 08:05 AM
Hey JCO,

...sorry about the "jealousy"-issue!

I joined even a few more forums that day!
For no particular reason, just happened to start on BYA.
I think I am already infected with non-curable AP-virus, just did not have the opportunity (various reasons) to get a system set up.

(I did mention that the planned BYS is going to be built in Panama.....)

I stumbled onto this forum after a google-search for Chlorine/Chloramine treatment - Lance's posts stood out, so I asked!

I am VERY interested in AP since about 3 years, but only recently found the chance to get serious with it.
If you read through my BYA-thread you got the picture....

I wish, there was a way to cross-post, because I definitely will not parallel the same story a few times - I suspect I will eventually to get to ask questions on other forums too....

My other interests will never go away, no matter how hard the AP-affliction becomes!! :)

The other interest-forums are dormant for extended periods of time, but never shut down!

- Motor-cycles (AdvRider, Suzuki V-strom and BMW-airheads, and others....)
- 4x4 (Toyota before, VW-Amarok now, and a number of truck forums 4x4 pirate, Expedition-Portal; take a taste: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/t ... Free-Frame (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/124789-Fully-Integrated-MAN-or-TATRA-6x6-or-8x8-Expedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame) - I started to post somewhere after post #500-soemthing, same username as here...)
- Skoolie-Conversion (Skoolie.net)
- Alternative Energy
- Shipping-Container Housing
- Aviation
- Boats/Hovercraft

...not likely that I will loose interest in any of those over AP.

However AP WILL become a very important part of my life (and my families), if commercial doesn't work for us, at least for personnel use - Green Forage meat production is next - using AP to grow the stuff....
I just don't have the site in place yet - working on it!

Again - NO particular reason why BYA first - I did not chose, just got there first for no reason at all (I don't remember! Most likely a google search and BYA was the first link that looked promising).

I am just extremely busy right now to assemble my BASE-LINE of knowledge to start from.
Obviously AP is one of those areas where you can do things a million different ways and get a 100million opinions what is right. I am not sure if it is going to be weeks or months until we start to cut up IBCs and PVC-tubing, but in the meantime I will just absorb as much as possible and make up "my" baseline to start from.

Most likely I will just keep on going with my questionnaire over at BYA - if can't get a satisfying answer, I start here - I will introduce our project properly then, but will only copy it over from the "other side"...

Thanks for your interest and time!!

Cheers,

thjakits

jackalope
03-25-2015, 02:21 PM
Our water definitely has chloramines, so I wonder if the amount is just so small that it isn't harmful to the fish?

http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/t ... cess.shtml (http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/treatmentprocess.shtml)

Chlorine is added to the water as the primary disinfectant to prevent illness due to water-borne pathogens. The final barrier is the addition of ammonia to the water to react with chlorine and form chloramines. Cloramines are used to maintain a residual disinfectant throughout the water distribution system to ensure water quality to the consumerís tap.
I see they have taken down the link, and I can't find anything remotely resembling that link or that information on their site using the search. I guess the feds didn't like them removing poisons from their water! I wanted to use the link for a quote to another homebrewer.
Hi, Y'all! I'll be heading back to Montana in a couple of weeks, so I don't know how long it will be before I get on the net again.
Jackalope

davidstcldfl
03-27-2015, 04:41 AM
Hi Jackalope... :D

This page talks about the hardness...
http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/faqs.shtml

This one talks about chloramines...(towards the bottom)...
http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/w ... ndex.shtml (http://www.sandiego.gov/water/quality/watersources/treatmentprocess/index.shtml)

grimsteph
04-09-2015, 01:16 AM
I use ClorAm-X for chlorine and chloramine removal. It's FDA approved for fish intended for human consumption, and it's very cheap per treatment.