PDA

View Full Version : New going hungry and needing alot of help



Corey B
09-16-2011, 07:40 AM
Hello sorry this is my first post but I need help.
I have been reading every thing I can on aquaponics for the past two week. The short of the story is our family income has been cut to 1/4 and we are now having to rely on welfare to try and keep some food on the table. I do not want to feed my kids the crap that we have to rely on from welfare. I have been scraping together every penny I can for the past 3 months and I think I have enough to start a decent size system. I have $500 to work with.
I will have to do the system indoors because I need year around production. I live in Iowa so winter is to harsh.
I have a very small basement and the largest concern with it is it is only 6 ft tall at the highest and about 5' 6" under the duct work of the furnace is this enough height? I was either going to use a 150 gal water trough for the fish tank or build my own with wood and a pond liner. I figured the build my own I could keep the height down a bit and make up the amount of water with length.
My other option is to put the system upstairs where I have a lot of room 3 rooms actually (old farm house) but I am very concerned with the weight. I would like to start in the area of 150 gal fish tank and by my ruff, unknowledgeable math I have come up with a system that can weigh around 3,600 pounds.
This seems excessive to have up stairs. Is this too heavy for upstairs or is my math wrong?
The other thing is lighting I thought about using T5 florescent do to the overall cost per month vs light output. I have a ton of questions and I know all the answers are on this forum already so please do not be offended but I need to feed my family and do not want to do it off of state aid. so getting all the answers in one place will just make it a faster process for me. Thank you for your knowledge and your help.

urbanfarmer
09-16-2011, 09:20 AM
Hello sorry this is my first post but I need help.
I have been reading every thing I can on aquaponics for the past two week. The short of the story is our family income has been cut to 1/4 and we are now having to rely on welfare to try and keep some food on the table. I do not want to feed my kids the crap that we have to rely on from welfare. I have been scraping together every penny I can for the past 3 months and I think I have enough to start a decent size system. I have $500 to work with.
I will have to do the system indoors because I need year around production. I live in Iowa so winter is to harsh.
I have a very small basement and the largest concern with it is it is only 6 ft tall at the highest and about 5' 6" under the duct work of the furnace is this enough height? I was either going to use a 150 gal water trough for the fish tank or build my own with wood and a pond liner. I figured the build my own I could keep the height down a bit and make up the amount of water with length.
My other option is to put the system upstairs where I have a lot of room 3 rooms actually (old farm house) but I am very concerned with the weight. I would like to start in the area of 150 gal fish tank and by my ruff, unknowledgeable math I have come up with a system that can weigh around 3,600 pounds.
This seems excessive to have up stairs. Is this too heavy for upstairs or is my math wrong?
The other thing is lighting I thought about using T5 florescent do to the overall cost per month vs light output. I have a ton of questions and I know all the answers are on this forum already so please do not be offended but I need to feed my family and do not want to do it off of state aid. so getting all the answers in one place will just make it a faster process for me. Thank you for your knowledge and your help.
Hi Corey, welcome to the forum

Yes, we can try to help you the best we can. That sounds like a 400 gallon system. Assuming some minimal variables, I can quickly assume some costs for the electric in such a system:

(400 Watts / 50 gallons) or 3200 Watts for a 400 gallon system. That's about 27 amps @ 120 volts; so, you will need to figure in the electrical wiring and how you have it spread out around the house.

3200 Watts at $0.12/kWhr national average for a 12 hours day per 30 day month = $138 per month

Now, we'll assume 80 pounds of fish for your 400 gallon system. If it takes 6 months for the fish to reach 1 pound, and assuming a 3% feed rate per day using inexpensive feed.

6 months = 180 days with an mean average poundage of 40 pounds of fish mass per day = 7200 pound days of fish

@ 3% feed that's 216 pound days so we'll say FIVE 50 pound bags @ $15 a bag = $15 / month in feed

Disregarding the cost of water, nutrient supplements, and your labor, that equates to about $155 a month, add 10% margin because you're going to be amazing at this with our help (that's a low margin of error by the way): $175 per month

40 pounds of fish per 6 months is about 0.25 pounds of fish a day. That's about the size of ONE Tilapia fillet at the store. You really can't feed a family on that.

However, and without showing my calculations, you will get around 1.42 heads of lettuce a day. Again, not enough to feed your family.

CONCLUSION:
You can buy A LOT of food for $175 a month, more than you can grow indoors.

If you can do it outdoors, where the sun is free (and you will get bigger and better crops from this, higher calories and higher nutrition), growing your own food makes sense from an economical standpoint. If you wanted to do this as a hobby indoor or to grow your own herbs (or whatever) at ANY cost, great, grow indoors. This won't work for you unless the government picks up your electric bill, too.

Sorry for the bad news. :( Before I started calculating it for you, I expected to get a reasonable number to say that it's feasible, but alas it really doesn't make sense compared to outright buying food.

Buy seeds and plant them in the soil outdoors during the good season. Assuming you have decent soil, it won't cost you more than the seeds. You can't beat that! :mrgreen:

I just grew a 2 foot x 4 foot grow bed of radish in SAND. They were ready in less than 4 weeks, and the only fertilizer I used was peeing on them once or twice a week (this is free by the way). I still haven't eaten them all. They are low in calories (high in nutrients and antioxidants), but that's just an example if you really need to grow food for your family. Turnips, cabbage, and many other crops are good options, even in colder months. An outdoor mini-green house made of cheap plastic can help extend the growing season substantially while protecting your plants from pests. Many many other options, but outdoors is the way to go.

keith_r
09-16-2011, 10:21 AM
i have a small system in my basement, working on redesigning now, becuase i'm at just over 6' clearance in the section of the basement where i'll put my larger growbeds.. but my small growbed is doing well inside with 3 pairs of t8 flourescent lights..

Bioritize
09-16-2011, 11:13 AM
Hey Another Iowa Dude!!!

Hey Man our electricity is only .08 cents per KW. Crazy right

I am not quite sure where you got the electrical usage estimates. Some pumps use very small amounts of power 200 watts max, you can get a couple of 200 watt Fluorescent ballasts, 20,000 to 40,000 lumens depending on the brand. That is less than 20 kWh per day or 1.60 per day = $584 per year max.

The food will cost you, to me, you can get a ton of benefit by starting your out door plants indoors using aquaponics. This would payfor itself if you would utilize outdoor planting in the good parts of the year.

Black soldier flies, worms, duckweed would cut your costs a ton.

I would go with a intex above ground pool, 8' x 30" deep for only 50 bones. Pump, Growbeds, lights, You could get all that done for less than $2000. I made a 50 gallon system for about $300, but that does not provide much food. I would say you need at least 300 gallons to make it worthwhile.

If you build your own tanks and beds you may be able to save some cash too.

cedarswamp
09-16-2011, 11:47 AM
I'm not sure I follow your electric usage est. either UF, but you can grow ALOT of lettuce from a $1 pack of seeds. My problem was I couldn't use it fast enough and ended up throwing alot in the compost heap. Your livestock feed est. sounds high too. How fat are your fish? :lol:

Corey B
09-16-2011, 12:49 PM
well I know I will not be able to replace the stor but I would really like to off set the amount of food we have to buy from there. I would like to use worms and fly's and that is on my list of things to learn and ask about but for now I need to know if 6' basement is tall enough or if I can do it up stairs with out it moving it self to the first floor.

JCO
09-16-2011, 01:54 PM
Welcome to the show....pull up an easy chair, relax and stay awhile. New voices are always a welcome addition to our family..! Whatever questions you have on you mind, this is the place to get the answers so pick a topic of your interest and start your own thread and Enjoy. :mrgreen:

Corey B
09-16-2011, 03:26 PM
Hey Another Iowa Dude!!!

Hey Man our electricity is only .08 cents per KW. Crazy right

I am not quite sure where you got the electrical usage estimates. Some pumps use very small amounts of power 200 watts max, you can get a couple of 200 watt Fluorescent ballasts, 20,000 to 40,000 lumens depending on the brand. That is less than 20 kWh per day or 1.60 per day = $584 per year max.

The food will cost you, to me, you can get a ton of benefit by starting your out door plants indoors using aquaponics. This would payfor itself if you would utilize outdoor planting in the good parts of the year.

Black soldier flies, worms, duckweed would cut your costs a ton.

I would go with a intex above ground pool, 8' x 30" deep for only 50 bones. Pump, Growbeds, lights, You could get all that done for less than $2000. I made a 50 gallon system for about $300, but that does not provide much food. I would say you need at least 300 gallons to make it worthwhile.

If you build your own tanks and beds you may be able to save some cash too.
Thanks Bioritize,
Do you currently have a system up and running? I would really love the chance to check out an operating system in person.
When you say 300 gallons are you meaning just the fish tank size or the whole system? Like 150 fish tank and 150 grow beds.
Also do you know where the best place to get Black Soldier flies and duck weed is.

Bioritize
09-16-2011, 05:46 PM
Some Video's of it on my post here (Bioritize System Progress (http://www.diyaquaponics.com/forum/showthread.php?1058-Bioritize-System-Progress))

I was talking about tank size, 300 gallons of fish tank space would let you grow out about 50 fish all the time and you would have plenty of nutrients for lots of grow beds.

Yea man message me to try and hook up.

I think you can just attract the soldier flies in this area. As far as duckweed, I have not checked but I would be interested in some if you find it around here.

rfeiller
09-16-2011, 10:47 PM
should you be able to do aquaponics you might research out which veggies are the most nutritious, require less care being easier to grow and will hold up for a period of time when ripe such as summer squash 4-6mos., lettuce is nice in a salad but just about worthless as far as nutrition and durability. crops of the cabbage family are durable and easy to grow, swiss chard and other leafy veggies can provide a contineous harvest of leaves. so veggies can do ok with less light, less utility cost. you might start out with using the raft type grow beds where you do not have to be concerned with the cost of the media, except enough to provide nitrification. it also increase the water volumn which helps produce a more stable system. these are also the least expensive grow beds to make and one can flow into the next, i do recommend two small water pumps to one larger one in case of a failure on the part of one of the pumps you still have a running system. the glitch in the program is of course what type of aquatic animal do you want to raise.

you might look into incorporating black soldier fly larva and red wiggler earthworms into the mix. they can provide additional nutrients without an increase in utilities. set up properly you can feed the bsf larva and excess red wiggler earthworms to your fish, which would allow you to raise say perch or bluegill or other types of fish without the heating cost attributed to tilapia. if supplimental feeding with live food i.e. larva and worms you can use a lessor quality fish food pellet saving money and still get good results. the worms and larva can be raised with garbage, newspaper, cardboard that would cost you nothing. there is nothing wrong in using everything at you disposal aquaculture, vermiponics, vermiculture, bsf. i am incorporating all of these with wonderful results.
you will not produce all of the fish proteen you might hope for, but then folks such as Badflash on this forum intergrates several different types of aquatic animals to produce food for his table and nutrients for his plants.

welcome to our forum.

bsfman
09-17-2011, 06:32 AM
you might look into incorporating black soldier fly larva and red wiggler earthworms into the mix.

Unfortunately, Black Soldier Flies are not typically found often above USDA zone 7 (and rarely in zone 6). Even zones 6 and 7 have short seasons of just a few months in the summer when BSF can be found. Zone 5 in Iowa - sorry to say they aren't gonna be there. While I agree feeding BSF larvae is wonderful for the fish, the cost of importing sufficient quantities outside their native areas would be prohibitive.

rfeiller
09-17-2011, 08:07 AM
i thought this is something he was considering doing in his basement, wouldn't it be possible to produce them there, especially if he could get ahold of the wingless strain? (i believe i read somewhere there was such a thing)

bsfman
09-17-2011, 09:54 AM
i thought this is something he was considering doing in his basement, wouldn't it be possible to produce them there, especially if he could get ahold of the wingless strain? (i believe i read somewhere there was such a thing)

Nope. No wingless strain of BSF. Must be some other insect you heard about. Some people have been able to captively breed BSF in greenhouses, but again, getting a sufficient quantity to establish a breeding population is extremely prohibitive cost wise. He would be better off investigating mealworms or superworms or even breeding crickets (though I have no experience breeding any of them). I do have a lot of experience breeding BSF though, and sorry to say it just ain't an economically feasible option for somebody living in Iowa.

Corey B
09-17-2011, 09:19 PM
I do appreciate all the help so far. So BSF are out. that kinda sucks. But all this info is useless unless i know for sure that I can use my upstairs or if the basement at only 6' high is enough space to do an aquaponics system. I have also been looking at aireoponics and it takes a lot less water/ weight so I know it can be used up stairs taking advantage of the space I have. but 3,600 + pounds is a lot of weight for up stairs And I do not know if it is even possible.

bsfman
09-17-2011, 09:48 PM
I do appreciate all the help so far. So BSF are out. that kinda sucks. But all this info is useless unless i know for sure that I can use my upstairs or if the basement at only 6' high is enough space to do an aquaponics system. I have also been looking at aireoponics and it takes a lot less water/ weight so I know it can be used up stairs taking advantage of the space I have. but 3,600 + pounds is a lot of weight for up stairs And I do not know if it is even possible.

Your fish won't care about ceiling height in the basement. If you are less than 6' tall or if taller and you don't mind stooping to tend your fish and crops, the basement should do juft fine.

I grow outdoors, but from what I've read, plants do better with artificial light close by rather than far away. If in doubt about floor weight bearing capacity, I'd go with the basement. Gives you more living space upstairs too. Beats having a huge tank and grow beds in your living room too! :lol:

Corey B
09-18-2011, 09:22 AM
Ok Off to Des Moines to do some shopping for parts What is the best pump to use. How well would a sump pump work I want to airate as well as move the water with one pump as well as have enough size to add on latter. So I was thinking close to 1,000 GPH What do you all think?

Bioritize
09-18-2011, 10:18 AM
Corey,

I like the larger pump, because you can always shoot the water back into the tank then using ball valves adjust the flow rates to your grow beds.

JCO
09-18-2011, 01:44 PM
Sump pumps are not meant for continous use. Check out Home Depot or Lowes....they usually put their pond pumps on sale this time of the year and are usually a pretty good deal. The bigger the better. As mentioned above, you can always divert some of the water back into the fish tank. :mrgreen:

Corey B
09-18-2011, 06:51 PM
So will a plain old sump pump from the hardware store work? Are there any problems with running a sump pump vs a pound/fountain pump. It seems you get alot more GPH per $ with a sump vs others.

Corey B
09-18-2011, 08:00 PM
Sump pumps are not meant for continous use. Check out Home Depot or Lowes....they usually put their pond pumps on sale this time of the year and are usually a pretty good deal. The bigger the better. As mentioned above, you can always divert some of the water back into the fish tank. :mrgreen:
Sorry I did not get your post tell I got home my phone is not the best for web use. I guess it is a good thing I did not go with a sump then. I did see a 3,600 GPH pound pump on sale for $95 reg $189 but it took like 320 watts so I did not know how bad that would be on the old electric bill as well as that is really over kill for the system I am wanting to start with.
I also have a question about kid pools I seen a lot of those little plastic pools for sale for under $10 I know they are a touch short but how well would one of those cheep kid pools work for a fish tank? I bet it would hold 100+ Gal.
I did get something I hope will work for grow beds Concrete mixing tubs they are about 3'X2' X 8" deep I know that the 101 says 12" but I have not been able to find anything that would work.
Let me know your thoughts. thanks

bsfman
09-19-2011, 04:26 AM
I did get something I hope will work for grow beds Concrete mixing tubs they are about 3'X2' X 8" deep I know that the 101 says 12" but I have not been able to find anything that would work.
Let me know your thoughts. thanks

I'm using them for my floating raft system and they seem to work just fine.

Corey B
09-19-2011, 07:19 AM
Ya I am planing to start with two grow beds and one raft. I was thinking about taking the water through the beds then drain them into the raft and then overflow back into the fish tank. Is this a viable set up or should I just flow strait into the raft. I was thinking with the raft as the last step before going back to the fish tank It would keep the sediment and stuff to a minimum.
Also does anyone have a good resource for lights and where to buy them online. I would like to go with a nice T5 set up but can not find them in my area. Lots of T8 but I hear those will not work that great. Has anyone used this place http://www.hydroponics.net/mc/8 The Prices seem very good for what I have seen but I do not want it to be to good to be true and get scammed and lose way more then the price difference.

urbanfarmer
09-23-2011, 06:53 AM
Ya I am planing to start with two grow beds and one raft. I was thinking about taking the water through the beds then drain them into the raft and then overflow back into the fish tank. Is this a viable set up or should I just flow strait into the raft. I was thinking with the raft as the last step before going back to the fish tank It would keep the sediment and stuff to a minimum.
Also does anyone have a good resource for lights and where to buy them online. I would like to go with a nice T5 set up but can not find them in my area. Lots of T8 but I hear those will not work that great. Has anyone used this place http://www.hydroponics.net/mc/8 The Prices seem very good for what I have seen but I do not want it to be to good to be true and get scammed and lose way more then the price difference.
Everything for you here is about cost and maximizing your dollar to get the largest system possible to grow food for your family.

T12 bulbs and fixtures are the cheapest. Both badflash and I have used the 4 foot 2 bulb shop light fixtures with bulbs and it works very well. I have used 40 watt bulbs with 5 fixtures to get great growth from a 2 foot x 4 foot area. I was growing peppers. Lettuce may have a lower light requirement. Keep in mind these are not particularly high Calorie vegetables. Anyway, that gives you 400 Watts and 32,000 Lumens (for reference only) per 2' x 4' area. I have tried using the 32 Watt bulbs because I was trying to be cheap, but I set up 2 side-by-side systems with the same everything except the lights and the plant growth was noticeably different.

The 40 Watt bulbs are $1.50 a piece locally for me and the fixture is $10. I used simple 1x3 white lumber and some screws that go through metal sheeting to plump it all together. A few hooks and chains to hang it. It comes with some hooks and chains, but you may need extra depending on your setup. Total cost should be around $65 for a 2' x 4' area. If you can beat that cost, please share!

davidstcldfl
09-23-2011, 06:03 PM
I did get something I hope will work for grow beds Concrete mixing tubs they are about 3'X2' X 8" deep I know that the 101 says 12" but I have not been able to find anything that would work.
Let me know your thoughts. thanks

I'm using them for my floating raft system and they seem to work just fine.
I'm using them for gravel grow beds. I'm using a swirl filter to remove alot of the solids before it gets to the beds. ( the barrel on the right side of the picture)
They are ok for lettuce and that kind of stuff. Since they are pretty shallow, big plants will fill the media with enough roots to prevent water flow....so don't do any thing like this...... :lol:

http://i931.photobucket.com/albums/ad157/davidstcldfl/6mixingtubs.jpg

That's six tubs, side by side.

diane
10-14-2011, 11:33 AM
T5 grow lights are an excellent option for indoor garden when considering the low cost, low energy, and longevity of the system. T5 grow lights also have a longer life expectancy, up to 3 years, and do not lose any of their lumens as they age like some of the other grow light options on the market.

davidstcldfl
10-14-2011, 12:12 PM
Hi diane , welcome to the forum... :D
I hope you get a chance to start a thread in...'A place to say hello'...and tell us a little about your self... :)

Lordshandyman
04-25-2012, 03:05 PM
I do appreciate all the help so far. So BSF are out. that kinda sucks. But all this info is useless unless i know for sure that I can use my upstairs or if the basement at only 6' high is enough space to do an aquaponics system. I have also been looking at aireoponics and it takes a lot less water/ weight so I know it can be used up stairs taking advantage of the space I have. but 3,600 + pounds is a lot of weight for up stairs And I do not know if it is even possible.
Cory, welcome to the obsession.

If your basement is only 6' high, then it should be relatively easy to brace up the first floor under the GB locations. Also, if you buy a fountain pump that would lift over 10', you might be able to have the FT in basement and the GB's on first floor. If you could position the GBs close to windows, free sunlight. Also, if located on the south side of house, then you could even have outdoor beds connected to your indoor beds during growing season that drain back to the basement FT. During growing season, you could even save more money just by shutting off / bypassing the indoor GB if they require artificial light.

***Warning***

You said it was an old farm house, be careful of water damaged floors under windows. Old style windows tend to leak over the years and rot the floor and floor joist around them. If only the flooring material is soft around your windows, just put down some 3/4 plywood under the GB's, and some treated 4x4's standing on ends in the basement supporting the floor joist. You may want to do this even if the flooring is sound, as an extra precaution. Jack each joist just a small amount, no more than 1/4", to slide the supports in place, use a level to make sure they are exactly plumb, then gently lower down on supports. I would not jack them any more than that, or you could crack sheetrock / plaster upstairs. I would also put several screws at an angle (toe nail) at the top of the support post and bottom of joist to keep them from falling if shrinkage occurs.
This would require drilling holes in your floor for plumbing, but you did say it was an old farm house and you are hungry. ;)

If the joist are damaged I can give more details later. If your interested in doing it this way, take lots of pictures of the locations you are thinking of using and post them. I will try and help as much as I can. I have some practical experience in these matters, but I am far from being an engineer, I'm just a handyman with a wide range of experience. So continue at your own risk.

Just a thought.