Grow Lights

[Bioritize]

Hey Guys,

I am working on my first system and I am debating on grow lights. I already have a couple hoods and a 600w HPS bulb laying around but I am really interested in LED or Fluorescent bulbs. Do any of you guys have a recommendation for a small 40 - 50 gal system?

How well do the LED bulbs work, where can you get them?

I plan to expand this system as I perfect my design.

Thanks,

[urbanfarmer]

It depends on what your are growing, budgets restraints, space and ventilation, etc. You can use the cheapest fluorescent lights you find without any problems. LED work fine, but the type you get are very important whereas fluorescent lights are pretty good across the board.

[davidstcldfl]

Hi Bioritize, Welcome to the forum.. :D
I did a quick search for led plant lights....this link caught my eye...Ok, I confess, I'm easily amussed when I'm half awake, sipping on my coffee.... :lol: I thought it might 'stir the pudding a little'. Lets see the comments on this one..... :P
http://www.cheapvegetablegardener.com/2 ... w-box.html (http://www.cheapvegetablegardener.com/2009/01/cheap-led-light-and-grow-box.html)

[urbanfarmer]

The basic concept is correct on choosing the red or blue lights; however, LED lights emit a specific frequency and the chlorophyll likewise requires a narrow range of visible light to perform its function. It is unlikely those LED are at the right spectrum. Also, there's no telling how strong they are. They may or may not be strong enough.

Oh, I found something... If you look at the updates on his page he says the design yielded very leggy seedlings. After adding more lights it was still leggy. If I have learned anything from the experts I have had the pleasure to learn from, once the seedlings are leggy you have some serious problems with the plant's development. Maybe not important to a hobbyist, but the commercial implications are vast...

[keith_r]

regarding flourescents, i'm growing a mixed variety lettuce, radish, carrots, zuchini with t8 flourescent lights, i have 3 pairs of lights over 2 growbeds (55 gal barrel cut in half), everything is doing well,, i'm getting a bunch of t5's pretty soon to start trying out

[davidstcldfl]

Hopefully, the LED's will become cheaper and guys like U F, will gather/develope more data on the proper use of them. It sure would be nice to be able to do aquaponics indoors, year round.
With the crazy weather, that nature is dishing out worldwide....that seems to be the way to go.

Kieth, how close do you keep the lights to the plants ? Have you experianced any issues as the plants get bigger....like the lower leaves not getting enough light ?

[rfeiller]

welcome to the forum, questions about lites will get a lot of response. couple of thousand dollars difference between home depot shop lights and led. if you are growing lettuce, home depot, if you are growing marijuana definitely led, that's about the only crop that will pay for them, or at least a high end fluorescent with specific lite spectrum s.

[davidstcldfl]

if you are growing lettuce, home depot, if you are growing marijuana definitely led, that's about the only crop that will pay for them, or at least a high end fluorescent with specific lite spectrum s.
:lol: .....you can always find some 'used' lights for less....
http://www.propertyroom.com/Catalog.asp ... goryId=456 (http://www.propertyroom.com/Catalog.aspx?Category=Commercial%20Nursery%20Suppl ies&CategoryId=456)

[Oliver]

Off-the-shelf LED lights come in colors (red and blue) that are not quite the right wavelength. In looking at their spectrum, they do cover more than a single sliver of frequency but their main energy output is far enough off the optimum required by the plants that you will need about ten times the power to get enough light in the part of the spectrum the plant requires. This comes out to be about 100 watts of LED electrical power for each square meter of grow bed space.

Color corrected LEDs, on the other hand, are claimed to require only about 10 watts per square meter of grow bed space. Color corrected LEDs are more expensive to purchase.

We are currently building a grow room that is well insulated in order to reduce its energy consumption. As part of this experiment, we will be testing color corrected LED grow lights.

This project is, in part, us trying to determine if it is economically viable to move on to a commercial operation that can be placed in a large number of varying environments.

I will keep you posted as we progress. We currently have the room completed and the components for the system in place and ready to be connected. We have yet, however, to purchase the rather expensive color corrected LED grow lights.

So, once we do all of this, we will have a better idea if the claims made are supported by the testing we will do.

As an aside, we have been told that some experiments with using just red and blue LED grow lights produce a modified result from that of a full spectrum light. As an example, flowers grow well but have no smell. Vegetables come out tasting a little off.

I cannot validate these claims but the lights we will be using, in addition to being color corrected, will have the addition of green and yellow LEDs.

Oliver

[davidstcldfl]

Wow Oliver....I'm looking forward to hearing your results :D

[JCO]

Bioritize, go to your profile and put in the city/state/country where you live.....maybe some member/s are close to you. :mrgreen:

[badflash]

I use standard off the shelf fl shop lights with daylight bulbs (6500K). The fixure costs $10 on sale, and the bulbs around $2 each. 80watts for $14. You replace the enire thing about every year, but it is the cheapest way if you can't use sunlight. Growlights and LED's just are not worth the cost.

[urbanfarmer]

I use standard off the shelf fl shop lights with daylight bulbs (6500K). The fixure costs $10 on sale, and the bulbs around $2 each. 80watts for $14. You replace the enire thing about every year, but it is the cheapest way if you can't use sunlight. Growlights and LED's just are not worth the cost.
THIS is exactly what I do 4' shop light fixtures for $10 and the bulbs for $1.50. This costs me $13! Try your local home improvement type store. :lol:

Badflash, do you happen to have the brand or even model number for those T12 bulbs??? In my store I could only locate the 40 Watt / 5000K color bulb, which may be why it's 50 cents cheaper...

[rfeiller]

home depot's shop lites use T12 bulbs out here

[Bioritize]

Very much looking forward to your results. I have a hood and HPS 600 watt bulb from a buddy of mine he left at my place when he was moving. :)

I just went out and bought a 1000 watt dimmable ballast from my local hydro shop. It was about $300 but I can use any bulb I can get my hands on and it will also be enough to handle a larger system when I build that one. I would have gone with the Fluorescent if I had not already had the hood and bulb.

Thanks guys for the advice.

My plans are to go bigger and bigger, there is only 1 fish farm in my state that I know of. So, may be the right time for this idea in my city large scale.

Take care,

[urbanfarmer]

Very much looking forward to your results. I have a hood and HPS 600 watt bulb from a buddy of mine he left at my place when he was moving. :)

I just went out and bought a 1000 watt dimmable ballast from my local hydro shop. It was about $300 but I can use any bulb I can get my hands on and it will also be enough to handle a larger system when I build that one. I would have gone with the Fluorescent if I had not already had the hood and bulb.

Thanks guys for the advice.

My plans are to go bigger and bigger, there is only 1 fish farm in my state that I know of. So, may be the right time for this idea in my city large scale.

Take care,
It sounds like money is no object for you! That's great for a hobby. The thing about fluorescent bulbs is they don't waste a lot of energy as heat. This translates to savings on the electric bill (is some cases massive savings). In a commercial situation it's best to use fluorescent bulbs. Japan has large indoor hydroponic farms that supply vast amounts of food and they exclusively use fluorescent bulbs (however I have heard they were developing some cost-effective LED grow lighs but the research was not done yet).

[Bioritize]

Hmm, if the fluorescent do just fine. Perhaps I should return the ballast and exchange for the Fluorescent light. I justified the ballast purchase because I figured it would be necessary for larger setup's.

I may go swap this out today.

[cedarswamp]

If you want to grow fruiting plants I would hold onto the HPS/MH fixture. You can grow tons of vegetation under flourescents but fruit set is sporadic and slowgrowing at best.

LED's the technology is there but it's still way expensive for the right color/intensity bulbs, and IMHO forget the toy LED lights they sell at the hydro stores, I've never seen a healthy plant growing under one.

[rfeiller]

if the HPS where not the best for now, the serious growers wouldn't be spending the money on utilities and the equipment. i don't care if it's roses or cannibus you won't find a flourescent lite in the place. i should clarify this, flourescents are used for cloning and seedlings.

[badflash]

Badflash, do you happen to have the brand or even model number for those T12 bulbs??? In my store I could only locate the 40 Watt / 5000K color bulb, which may be why it's 50 cents cheaper...

Phillips at Home Depot or Lowes. I get the case of 10

[urbanfarmer]

if the HPS where not the best for now, the serious growers wouldn't be spending the money on utilities and the equipment. i don't care if it's roses or cannibus you won't find a flourescent lite in the place. i should clarify this, flourescents are used for cloning and seedlings.
Umm, what about all those huge state-of-the-art hydroponic farms in Japan that only use fluorescent bulbs?

It has to do with how much light and of what spectrum comes out of the light. It's not as simple as saying "X bulb is better because I say so" the plant needs what it needs and the options are out there with their respective pros and cons. I have successfully grown peppers indoors and had a better crop than outdoors that season. It probably had to do with the fact I could give the plant more light indoors and control the temp, but results are restults.

Ultimately, we can debate it back and forth. The science is very simple behind the lights, but the best thing to do is try it for yourself to settle all doubts.

I have this inexpensive device that lets you look at a light source and it breaks down the spectrum against the wavelength on a scale. It's a crude instrument, but works quiet well to compare lights. You can't make out the exact intensity of the areas, but you can get a good idea of what areas are stronger and weaker. This gives you a point of comparison... anyway... hope that helps :lol: :ugeek:

[urbanfarmer]

here, I dug it up for you...

Quan Analysis Spectroscope
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015T7JH2

[rfeiller]

japan is a very unique entity. they take great pride in perfection. i know this because a large percentage of the tropical fish i raised commercially went there. i know that it was nothing for a japanese individual to spend a thousand dollars on a single aquarium for just a couple of my fish. in the usa if a person spent 100 dollars it was too much. it certainly not comparing apples to apples. theri grow rooms are laboratories and i can assure you none of their lights came from home depot.
their building codes for example are about 7 years ahead of ours.
i have toured and know a number of folks with commercial big dollar set ups here and none of them use fluorescents lighting for grow out, flowering, or fruiting. they are looking at led technology, but except for cloning have passed up fluorescents. i go by results and what is happening with successful producers, not the lets get by guys.

[cedarswamp]

Umm, what about all those huge state-of-the-art hydroponic farms in Japan that only use fluorescent bulbs?

You got a link?

[rfeiller]

If I wasn't debating just stating what I have seen and experienced. I have read several articles on the Japanese systems and believe me no one has a greater respect for their accomplishments then I.

[urbanfarmer]

:D

[urbanfarmer]

I was just told Taiwan is just as cutting edge if not more than Japan on these types of agricultural technologies! If anyone finds anything, please share!

[Madmax478]

I'm using a 90 watt LED grow light from prosource the growth is simply amazing... Like you I wanted to see the difference. Pricey as heck. 300 bucks for one light. If money is no object go LED. If your on a budget like most are I'd go with T5 fluorescent. Unless I win the Lotto I doubt I'll be buying more to grow my lettuces and tomatoes. Oh one other thing my mortality rate of my fish exposed to LED lights is not good on that system either. Lose a gold fish a week in perfect conditions... water and temp wise. System in garage with huge temp and water conditions swings. Haven't lost a fish in ages.

[urbanfarmer]

Tell me more about the LED. How far do you have it from the plants? What kind of plants? What square foot area is the light providing? Do you use any other lights or just that one? What spectrum was it (red/blue/white/mixed)?

[Madmax478]

I have it 24 inches above the plants. I'm currently using it on about 1.5 sq foot grow bed. It is using Red, Blue, and Orange LED's very little light from a window and I don't often have the light on in the living room. Even though plant growth for this light is AWSOME the price is outside most people budget. I'm getting growth from a one month old system better than I would get off of a fully cycled 1 year old system. Haven't check out the performance on fruiting plants yet. I just got the light a day or so after I started this system up.
Here is there web site. You can go read there propaganda about there light. Just take into consider we are not there target market.
http://www.prosourceworldwide.com/

[JCO]

I took a look at their site and Yep, you're right...their tomatoes are a lot racier than ours...big time different market altogether :shock: :o :lol: :mrgreen:

[Madmax478]

I'm kinda of curious to see how flowering and fruiting plant work under this LED light my self. That what I hear the big Beef is against LED lights. As far as leafing plants IMHO this one works well.

[urbanfarmer]

I have it 24 inches above the plants. I'm currently using it on about 1.5 sq foot grow bed. It is using Red, Blue, and Orange LED's very little light from a window and I don't often have the light on in the living room. Even though plant growth for this light is AWESOME the price is outside most people budget. I'm getting growth from a one month old system better than I would get off of a fully cycled 1 year old system. Haven't check out the performance on fruiting plants yet. I just got the light a day or so after I started this system up.
Here is there web site. You can go read there propaganda about there light. Just take into consider we are not there target market.
http://www.prosourceworldwide.com/
They sell these on eBay for less than half the price. I have looked at them in the past. The savings on electric compared to HPS/MH pays for the LED light itself; however, you can compete in that respect with fluorescent bulbs. I was expecting more than 1.5 sq ft since some of the advertised ones state as much as 16 square feet of space!!! I assumed realistically it was more like 4 or so based on comparing the advertisements and results on forums from folks. Very interesting stuff. Keep us updated!

[davidstcldfl]

Just take into consider we are not there target market.

I took a look at their site and Yep, you're right...their tomatoes are a lot racier than ours...big time different market altogether :shock: :o :lol: :mrgreen:
I didn't see any pictures of tomatoes at their site...
?......when I went to the site and saw the prices.....'CLICK' the :idea: went on....You guys were talking about 'Those growers', the ones with the high cost product...... :lol:


If the light last as long as they claim, they might not be bad for small setups inside to grow stuff like lettuce and herbs ( the kind found in grocery stores :D ) Between the electric savings and the 'life span' of the lights (about 6 years)...it might not be that costly over several years.

[cookie]

Long time reader first time poster here,

I have monkeyed around with lighting for a while and found T-5 far better then t-12 0r t-8. I would go with t-8 for cuttings and such as you can get the set ups close to the t-12 price and they give off more light per watt used. The t-5 outperform the others in lumen per watt its going to pay for itself fast as most people would run the lights 18+ hours a day.

Myself and others I know have found the LED lights out there lacking but the newer ones with 90 degree lenses on them instead of the wider ones seem to show promise. There is one company out west that gave some out to people to try that looked like the regular rectangular LED grow lights but had made in USA LEDs installed just shipped them there got them installed and then finished ones shipped back. I just look for the company but it looks like they went out of business. The ones they had seemed to do the trick over the UFO or chinese made LED types.

Experiments I tried along with others showed slow growth rates and overall poor fruit/flower development with LED lights tested but over all more material was harvested per kilowatt hour and over all watt amount of lights hanging compared to HID. That seems like a good thing until you see that plants may take a week or two longer under them to ripen so it might pay better to buck up to HID or high power florescent instead.

I did use some LED panels later as side lighting and that really helped lower branches as 600watt HPS from above would get blotted out after a foot or so of dense canopy.

To address the heights of lights I would always just keep whatever lights as close as I could hold my hand and feel comfy. Light intensity decreases x4 every time you double the distance so keeping them more then a foot away is just pissing away electricity. Get a mover or hook two bulbs to one ballast and wire a relay up to flipflop them just get them close. If its a little to close just back it up it will heal.

If you want to get 400 watters cheap look to craigslist and you will find high bay lighting that can be cheaply converted over by changing the plug and wiring the bulb remotely. Get a little sheet metal and bend up a hood or hang the bulb in the middle of taller plants sans hood for even greater efficiency. I think 600 watters where found to be the best for HID type as you can bring them closer to the plants then 1000 watt bulbs so it ends up putting more lumens to the veggies.

My next set up will be a mix of lighting but mostly t-5 maybe home made t-5HO as I would bend up the case myself and wire it as the parts might be cheaper separate. I have yet to price the t-5HO parts out but the t-5 ballasts, holders and bulbs come out way cheaper if you just make your own fixture. I plan on having some 400 watt MH on flip flops to help out as I have about 50 extra ballasts I need to do something with.

I have only done a small fish tank set up with aquaponics but have other experience with indoor farming and hope to go full scale soon aquaponic wise.

[Oliver]

Light intensity decreases x4 every time you double the distance so keeping them more then a foot away is just pissing away electricity.
This idea of inverse square law is a little misunderstood. It is actually the inverse square of the distance "from the light's theoretical point source".

For example, if you have a light array that is two foot square (four square feet) and has an aperture of 90 degrees, then the theoretical point source is one foot behind (above) the light's position. This is found by extending the light pattern to an intersection above (behind) the light. Or, just use trigonometry (tan function) to calculate its position. (1ft X tan(45deg))= 1 ft. The first 1 ft. is half the distance across the light. The 45 degrees is half the aperture angle.

So, if the light is one foot above the grow bed and radiating a given amount of light, then the point source is two feet above the grow bed. By moving the light to three feet above the grow bed the point source moves to four feet above the grow bed thereby doubling the point source's distance from two to four feet above the grow bed. The light intensity is now one forth and the area covered by this new intensity is four times that of the light's original one foot distance. You have moved the light from one to three feet above the grow bed and quartered the light received for a given area.

Starting back with the light at one foot above the grow bed, for an aperture of 45 degrees the new point source is 2.4 feet behind (above) the light of the same size. The new point source is 3.4 (1 + 2.4) feet above the grow bed. In order to double the exposed area you would have to raise the light's point source to 6.8 feet (twice 3.4 feet) or the light to 5.8 feet above the grow bed, thereby reducing the light to one forth its original intensity at one foot above the grow bed.

It is important with anything other than a single point source, such a a single LED, that the point source of the array be calculated in determining the amount of light and the area that is covered by that light when it is moved away from its target.

My example is for a square array, but if the array is not square or round, but instead rectangular like most fluorescents, then the calculations must be made separately for both dimensions. The aperture will be affected by the reflector behind the lights and will not be the same in both directions.

I realize that I have made this somewhat technical, but if you are serious about knowing how the lighting is changing with position then once you have a set of numbers you can then calculate what the change will be if you move the light.

Or, you can get a light meter and measure it. Be advised, however, that the inexpensive light meters are set for 550 nm or yellow/amber light. LEDs generally emit light at wavelengths other than what the meter can accurately measure. The more expensive light meters come with filters and have either correction tables or an adjustment to compensate for their change in sensitivity to that wavelength.

Oliver

[urbanfarmer]

Light intensity decreases x4 every time you double the distance so keeping them more then a foot away is just pissing away electricity.
This idea of inverse square law is a little misunderstood. It is actually the inverse square of the distance "form the light's theoretical point source".

For example, if you have a light array that is two foot square (four square feet) and has an aperture of 90 degrees, then the theoretical point source is one foot behind (above) the light's position. This is found by extending the light pattern to an intersection above (behind) the light. Or, just use trigonometry (tan function) to calculate its position. (1ft X tan(45deg))= 1 ft. The first 1 ft. is half the distance across the light. The 45 degrees is half the aperture angle.

So, if the light is one foot above the grow bed and radiating a given amount of light, then the point source is two feet above the grow bed. By moving the light to three feet above the grow bed the point source moves to four feet above the grow bed thereby doubling the point source's distance from two to four feet above the grow bed. The light intensity is now half and the area covered by this new intensity is four times that of the light's original one foot distance. You have moved the light from one to three feet above the grow bed and halved the light received for a given area.

Starting back with the light at one foot above the grow bed, for an aperture of 45 degrees the new point source is 2.4 feet behind (above) the light of the same size. The new point source is 3.4 (1 + 2.4) feet above the grow bed. In order to double the exposed area you would have to raise the light's point source to 6.8 feet (twice 3.4 feet) or the light to 5.8 feet above the grow bed, thereby reducing the light to half its original intensity at one foot above the grow bed.

It is important with anything other than a single point source, such a a single LED, that the point source of the array be calculated in determining the amount of light and the area that is covered by that light when it is moved away from its target.

My example is for a square array, but if the array is not square or round, but instead rectangular like most fluorescents, then the calculations must be made separately for both dimensions. The aperture will be affected by the reflector behind the lights and will not be the same in both directions.

I realize that I have made this somewhat technical, but if you are serious about knowing how the lighting is changing with position then once you have a set of numbers you can then calculate what the change will be if you move the light.

Or, you can get a light meter and measure it. Be advised, however, that the inexpensive light meters are set for 550 nm or yellow/amber light. LEDs generally emit light at wavelengths other than what the meter can accurately measure. The more expensive light meters come with filters and have either correction tables or an adjustment to compensate for their change in sensitivity to that wavelength.

Oliver
I don't understand your application of the inverse-square law... I think I'm getting the inverse-square law on its own... anyway, why are you treating a light fixture as 2 point sources?

I think the idea is closer is better, yes?


Light intensity decreases x4 every time you double the distance so keeping them more then a foot away is just pissing away electricity.

I think what cookie is misunderstanding is not the inverse-square law, but the concept of units. For instance, if we magically switch to the metric system, then by your implied logic the best distance is 1 meter, correct? :mrgreen:

The Truth is 1 foot is NOT the optimum distance. The optimum distance the is the distance that maximizes the light usage for your plant, which will change as the plant grows.

The End!

[urbanfarmer]

[AQAUPONIC] SYSTEMS DO NOT WORK FOR GROWING MARIJUANA. We have a report from a friend of a student of ours, who had grown marijuana successfully using hydroponics for years, who tried for over a year to grow marijuana using Aquaponics systems, and never succeeded. Just so you know: When we say “food”, that is really what we mean.
SOURCE: friendlyaquaponics.com/do-it-myself-systems/micro-system/

[Oliver]

I don't understand your application of the inverse-square law... I think I'm getting the inverse-square law on its own... anyway, why are you treating a light fixture as 2 point sources?

I think the idea is closer is better, yes?

I'm not sure what your question is, especially about two point sources. I will attempt to clarify.

For a light array that has the same aperture angle in both dimensions (directions) then for calculation purposes, it is one point that is located behind the light fixture. That is the point that is used to calculate the inverse square law of the light's distance from an object and the effects of any light intensity change due to changing that distance.

For a very large light fixture array, one that is much larger than the area to be lighted, this distance (known as aperture near field) does not appreciably affect the amount of light being received by the plants until the change in distance is at least as far away as the light fixture array is big. From this distance and beyond (known as aperture far field), any increase in distance will affect the amount of light being received by the plants. This is why in a very large grow house, the lights can be placed high above the plants, and as long as you have ample lighting, the distance has little relevance. As you move further away from one light (due to its increasing height), you come into the beam of an adjacent light. The light array, in this case, is the whole top of the grow house. The point source then, is perhaps several hundred feet above the plants, thereby making any change in plant height irrelevant with regard to the amount of light being received.

When you have a point source such as a single LED, then the light is the point source, for there is no array of lights. In that case, yes, the closer the better, up to the point of over lighting the plant.

As an example, some species of lettuce do much better with less light over longer hours, which saves on electricity.

Oliver

[Oliver]

Oops,

I made a mistake in saying the light is reduced to one half the original value for a doubling of point source distance. I should of said reduced to one forth its original value.

I have made the correction in the earlier post.

Oliver

[keith_r]

[AQAUPONIC] SYSTEMS DO NOT WORK FOR GROWING MARIJUANA. We have a report from a friend of a student of ours, who had grown marijuana successfully using hydroponics for years, who tried for over a year to grow marijuana using Aquaponics systems, and never succeeded. Just so you know: When we say “food”, that is really what we mean.
friendlyaquaponics.com/do-it-myself-systems/micro-system/

not that it matters, but i wouldn't pass judgement on anything growing in aquaponics when "1 person said it didn't work"

[urbanfarmer]

Thanks Oliver. That is an interesting concept!




[AQAUPONIC] SYSTEMS DO NOT WORK FOR GROWING MARIJUANA. We have a report from a friend of a student of ours, who had grown marijuana successfully using hydroponics for years, who tried for over a year to grow marijuana using Aquaponics systems, and never succeeded. Just so you know: When we say “food”, that is really what we mean.
friendlyaquaponics.com/do-it-myself-systems/micro-system/

not that it matters, but i wouldn't pass judgement on anything growing in aquaponics when "1 person said it didn't work"
Actually, that would be 2 persons, both of which are under federal indictment for making the mistake of even trying this.

We do not promote this on the forum and anyone asking for such technologies needs to be stopped dead in their tracks, okay keith? :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

what about folks from a state where it's legal to grow your own? i think we're up to 16 states!
right next door to me in michigan, a person with the right paperwork can grow something like 16 plants..
i certainly don't think we should promote anything that's illegal, but it is legal in some places....
and i wouldn't take 2 people's word on it either.. it's funny -not funny haha, but funny creepy.. that they got busted with a bunch of weed, but they can't grow it in ap

[urbanfarmer]

what about folks from a state where it's legal to grow your own? i think we're up to 16 states!
right next door to me in michigan, a person with the right paperwork can grow something like 16 plants..
i certainly don't think we should promote anything that's illegal, but it is legal in some places....
and i wouldn't take 2 people's word on it either.. it's funny -not funny haha, but funny creepy.. that they got busted with a bunch of weed, but they can't grow it in ap
Wrong. It's not legal anywhere in the United States. Three letters: D - E - A

The persons under indictment followed the advice you are giving, "that it's legal in some places" and it was in fact legal in their state, yet they were arrested. Please, don't pass around bad information unless you know what you are saying. It could cost someone their life (as it did with these folks).

There are also plenty of resources out there, documentaries, etc, that discuss the legal issues growers face. Again, please don't state things so mindlessly unless you have a clue what you are talking about. We're not discussing nitrates here, your anecdotal advice can land someone in jail. We live in a police state, and the laws are QUITE HARSH for this particular crime. There is no slap on the wrist. This is not a joke.

Now please stop promoting illegal activities on the forum (even out of misunderstanding).

Thanks for being understanding.

[keith_r]

i would never promote anything illegal..
i know a few people that grow in california, and i voiced my opinion to them that they were idiots and shouldn't do it..
i won't even go in to how the DEA targets the grow operations..

i will also voice my support for the legalization of medical usage if anyone ever asks me, or if it's ever on a ballot

[urbanfarmer]

i would never promote anything illegal..
i know a few people that grow in california, and i voiced my opinion to them that they were idiots and shouldn't do it..
i won't even go in to how the DEA targets the grow operations..

i will also voice my support for the legalization of medical usage if anyone ever asks me, or if it's ever on a ballot
Sure, and I agree with that, but it's not about you or me.

The folks reading this stuff are looking for a quick answer to do what they plan to do. It is irresponsible for you to share your comprehension of the situation in a public space that clearly advocates doing something illegal by saying it's legal (which it is not). This is not an academic or political debate. It is irresponsible and immoral to mislead people into thinking they will not have their lives torn asunder if caught doing this, regardless of where in the USA they live.

The husband and wife I mentioned only recently told me their story. He was holding back his tears as they shared their experience and she was openly crying. They too, live in a state where it's legal. They too, were given the same advice you mentioned above, but the "theory" did not end so well for them. I do not wish that pain on anyone, and neither should you.

[urbanfarmer]

keith, I guess the other half of it is, do you realize how many people READ THESE FORUMS? Everyone I met, EVERYONE, reads the forums here at DIY. MOST of them are lurkers, very few had accounts, and none had every posted. Funny right? Anyway, the point is anyone looking into aquaponics (for whatever reason) will undoubtedly review a vast quantity of the threads on this forum. We do not need to lead them astray, and if anything, we should deter anyone trying to use this for the above said purpose.

And yes JCO, I plugged the forum vehemently. In fact, after speaking very technically about a topic with Murray in front of a crowd of 200 or so, I asked folks to join us here! I was also bum rushed by a crowd of people asking me tons of stuff after, and I directed them to here as well. There is a lot of love for aquaponics out there! :mrgreen:

[JCO]

UF man, this forum is honored to have you as a member and I back you all the way in all you say and nothing against Keithr either because even though we don't agree politically, he and I buried that hatchet and those differences long ago.

I appreciate you pluggin' the site and I'll never do anything to make you regret it. :mrgreen:

[cedarswamp]

Thanks Oliver. That is an interesting concept!




[AQAUPONIC] SYSTEMS DO NOT WORK FOR GROWING MARIJUANA. We have a report from a friend of a student of ours, who had grown marijuana successfully using hydroponics for years, who tried for over a year to grow marijuana using Aquaponics systems, and never succeeded. Just so you know: When we say “food”, that is really what we mean.
friendlyaquaponics.com/do-it-myself-systems/micro-system/

not that it matters, but i wouldn't pass judgement on anything growing in aquaponics when "1 person said it didn't work"
Actually, that would be 2 persons, both of which are under federal indictment for making the mistake of even trying this.

We do not promote this on the forum and anyone asking for such technologies needs to be stopped dead in their tracks, okay keith? :mrgreen:


I don't think Keith was promoting any illegal activity and IMHO was correcting misinformation about aquaponics. I wouldn't try growing opium poppies in my system either but being illegal doesn't mean it won't work.And please correct me if I'm wrong but don't we consider this an international community? I'm sure some of our member can grow the ganja legally.

IMHO the folks that said it won't work weren't tryin' hard enough and using the wrong hydroponic systems.



For the record I fall on the side of this being a states issue and think the Feds have overstepped their authority. That said I'm against the legalization except for REAL medicinal use.

[bsfman]

Now please stop promoting illegal activities on the forum (even out of misunderstanding).

Thanks for being understanding.

So I guess the idea of a massive aquaponic opium poppy growing operation is COMPLETELY out of the question, huh Urban? :shock:
(j/k)

[urbanfarmer]

I made no claims whatsoever. I simply posted an Internet reference of folks that have had some real life experience with both growing it and going to prison for it.

Are you both having that much trouble comprehending the situation? Just for a moment assume I have a strong knowledge of horticulture, biology, chemistry, and the like. Now go over this thread in your mind. Does anything seem unusual? Hm, what could possibly be the purpose of my actions with such a startling contradiction?

Let's be responsible human beings and realize people are influenced by us when making certain decisions.

Any by the way, this forum is hosted in the USA.

(I had a little fun with the colors :lol: )

[urbanfarmer]

Now please stop promoting illegal activities on the forum (even out of misunderstanding).

Thanks for being understanding.

So I guess the idea of a massive aquaponic opium poppy growing operation is COMPLETELY out of the question, huh Urban? :shock:
(j/k)
I think most forms of poppy are legal. They sell seeds at my local Lowes! :lol:

If I recall CORRECTLY from a lecture given on poppies (yes, we do that here) we went over the history and things, and unless you intentionally get seed that has high levels of opium, you could never get any from the existing cultivars.

[urbanfarmer]

See?

http://www.google.com/search?q=poppy+se ... eeds&hl=en (http://www.google.com/search?q=poppy+seeds#q=poppy+seeds&hl=en)

[JCO]

OK, what do you say folks....let's get back to the subject of this thread and take the ganja growers association info to the SUMP where it belongs. :mrgreen:

[urbanfarmer]

OK, what do you say folks....let's get back to the subject of this thread and take the ganja growers association info to the SUMP where it belongs. :mrgreen:
I second that motion!

[cookie]

Light intensity decreases x4 every time you double the distance so keeping them more then a foot away is just pissing away electricity.
This idea of inverse square law is a little misunderstood. It is actually the inverse square of the distance "form the light's theoretical point source".

For example, if you have a light array that is two foot square (four square feet) and has an aperture of 90 degrees, then the theoretical point source is one foot behind (above) the light's position. This is found by extending the light pattern to an intersection above (behind) the light. Or, just use trigonometry (tan function) to calculate its position. (1ft X tan(45deg))= 1 ft. The first 1 ft. is half the distance across the light. The 45 degrees is half the aperture angle.

So, if the light is one foot above the grow bed and radiating a given amount of light, then the point source is two feet above the grow bed. By moving the light to three feet above the grow bed the point source moves to four feet above the grow bed thereby doubling the point source's distance from two to four feet above the grow bed. The light intensity is now half and the area covered by this new intensity is four times that of the light's original one foot distance. You have moved the light from one to three feet above the grow bed and halved the light received for a given area.

Starting back with the light at one foot above the grow bed, for an aperture of 45 degrees the new point source is 2.4 feet behind (above) the light of the same size. The new point source is 3.4 (1 + 2.4) feet above the grow bed. In order to double the exposed area you would have to raise the light's point source to 6.8 feet (twice 3.4 feet) or the light to 5.8 feet above the grow bed, thereby reducing the light to half its original intensity at one foot above the grow bed.

It is important with anything other than a single point source, such a a single LED, that the point source of the array be calculated in determining the amount of light and the area that is covered by that light when it is moved away from its target.

My example is for a square array, but if the array is not square or round, but instead rectangular like most fluorescents, then the calculations must be made separately for both dimensions. The aperture will be affected by the reflector behind the lights and will not be the same in both directions.

I realize that I have made this somewhat technical, but if you are serious about knowing how the lighting is changing with position then once you have a set of numbers you can then calculate what the change will be if you move the light.

Or, you can get a light meter and measure it. Be advised, however, that the inexpensive light meters are set for 550 nm or yellow/amber light. LEDs generally emit light at wavelengths other than what the meter can accurately measure. The more expensive light meters come with filters and have either correction tables or an adjustment to compensate for their change in sensitivity to that wavelength.

Oliver
I don't understand your application of the inverse-square law... I think I'm getting the inverse-square law on its own... anyway, why are you treating a light fixture as 2 point sources?

I think the idea is closer is better, yes?


Light intensity decreases x4 every time you double the distance so keeping them more then a foot away is just pissing away electricity.

I think what cookie is misunderstanding is not the inverse-square law, but the concept of units. For instance, if we magically switch to the metric system, then by your implied logic the best distance is 1 meter, correct? :mrgreen:

The Truth is 1 foot is NOT the optimum distance. The optimum distance the is the distance that maximizes the light usage for your plant, which will change as the plant grows.

The End!

no end!

I did not misunderstand units. I had fixture at a meter but the DLI meter said there was not enough light per day. If we where metric around here I would have said about 30 centimeters above for a t5 that is pretty well broken in. I used that for cuttings that where rooted and it was sufficient. I also used the same type of lights on tomatoes but put the lights 2-3 inches(about 5 centimeters) as they really liked it close. I do agree 1 foot may not be the optimum distance as plants vary as to how much light they want per day but past a foot never seemed worth it to me according to my measurements. It was more feasible to hang more lights compared to putting them up higher trying to spread the light further.

[Russian Trout 17]

i think LED's are overpriced right now, and that the technology is not where it should be at... after all you scrap the whole unit after its 5-7 years of life. but it is energy efficient, no question about it. its a trade off you have to make with lights, HID's, LED's and T-5s.

[urbanfarmer]

i think LED's are overpriced right now, and that the technology is not where it should be at... after all you scrap the whole unit after its 5-7 years of life. but it is energy efficient, no question about it. its a trade off you have to make with lights, HID's, LED's and T-5s.
That pretty much sums it up. Yep!

I'm partial to T-12's because of the low cost of equipment. The difference in efficiency between a T-12 and a T-5 does not make up for the difference in material costs. The cost per 4' of 40 Watt bulb with ballast and housing and reflector is $6. That's $6 per 3200 Lumens. In Florida, electricity is pretty cheap. I don't know about NY.

[aquaarche]

yeah you can get T12 7000k (blue spectrum) to 10000k(full spectrum) grow lamps for a few bucks and fixtures are really cheap two lamps cover 4X6foot are of your grow bed.

[Russian Trout 17]

vegg florescent should be around 6500 K, while bloom are 3000 K. Ive only used t-5... not too sure about the t-12s if there in the spectrum

[aquaarche]

I ordered a T12 7000k today cost will be around $7. The one 10,000K on my lettuce side is blinking as if it is going bad.

[urbanfarmer]

I have used 4100K in the past and it worked VERY well. My plants always grew like crazy!

[blaster1]

Hi all
Excuse me for hijacking this thread but it seems to be where I could get some decent advice.
I'm starting from scratch & got hold of a insulated truck box. 6.5" wide x 6.5" high x 13" long it seems to keep temps constant I want to start a mini setup inside it to prove a point that you can feed yourself & others indoors if I close the door it is pitch black inside.
What would the ideal lighting wattages & positioning be to illuminate the room to grow your average veggies & house tilapia inside it ?
Please keep in mind that I have to do this on a very tight budget.

G

[keith_r]

that's a pretty small box.. i don't suppose you mean feet?

[blaster1]

Hehehe sorry yes I mean feet :oops: I work on the metric system :lol:

G

[keith_r]

well.. i'll say that it's going to depend.. t8 lights are 32 watts, i have 3 pairs over 1 pair of barrel growbeds, and get very nice green growth.
water pumps for smaller systems are pretty low wattage, i think my original pump is around 35 watts and pumps over 100gal/hr at a decent head..
you want to turn the volume of water in your fishtank over at least 1x per hour..
so now get out and find some fish tanks and growbeds..

[blaster1]

Thanks Keith
I got 3 x 130 gal tanks against 1 wall inside & 2 x 400 gal tanks outside sofar. As for grow beds I'm still stuck I think Im going to try differnt types of beds on each tank.
The other wall I have a bunch of various sized glass tanks for breeding tilapia & playing with guppies & killies.
Its still very experimental but I'm getting there

G

[aquaarche]

Keith,

what Kelvin are those t8 32watt bulbs?

[keith_r]

i usedmixed, they're labled warm or cool.. i'll check next time i'm at the store