Aquaponics realistic for grid-down situation?

[chesapeakebaybe]

I'm a newbie to aquaponics, and this question came up while I was going through Oliver's "how to" course. He suggested I post it as its own topic in the forum to see what others have to say:

I'm interested in aquaponics as a way to feed my family once things get really tough.

According to what I have read in this forum: "once you have your system up and running, you never, ever, want to turn it off; not even for the night. You might want to consider some kind of a power back-up in case of a power failure."

What do you suggest using as a backup power source once TSHTF? In a case where there is no access to fuel or electricity for over a year, does anyone have suggestions? You'd also need a backup power source as well... and solar power may or may not be completely reliable.

Also, how/where would you find the nutrients, etc you need to keep the water, fish & bacteria at optimum levels once TSHTF?

I find myself wondering if aquaponics is a viable solution for a grid-down situation. It may take more water and work to get food from the ground, but you don't have the concerns of power/backup power, pH levels, bacteria, etc, etc. And there's only so much you can stockpile... we have no way of knowing if we'll be off-grid for 2 months or 12 years.

I may be way off base (and I probably am). Could someone set me straight? Thanks.

[keith_r]

most of the systems here are "backyard" and rely on the grid..
of course the more you put into a system the more you want "failovers".. that being said, i'm thinking biodiesal generator might be an option for when "TSHTF", but if something major happens, i think "defense" would be the number one priority..
take it a step further and look up info on preppers, there was a recent show on natgeo that led me to this guy;
http://gardenpool.org/
some great stuff there, but i'm not sure how i feel about the chicken poo into the ft

[Oliver]

CBB,

Since you moved this over to here, I'll move my reply as well.

You bring up some good points, many of which we've considered.

If you reduce the fish density, then you could turn off the pumps for a period of time depending on that density. Considering this, you could run the system during the day on solar, assuming the sun is shining, and turn off the water pumps at night.

Reducing the fish density will not necessarily reduce the nutrient value. As long as the fish to bio-filter ratio is maintained and the fish to plant ratio is also maintained the fish to water ratio can be reduced by increasing the amount of water in the system. This can be done by increasing the size of the fish tank. It will take longer initially to build up the nutrients but given the above, they will be maintained. This will also make the system more stable, meaning that it will take longer for it's chemistry to change.

You must, however, maintain a high level of dissolved oxygen in the fish tank. It would be best for the fish to have their final daily meal several hours before turning off the water pumps in order for the fish to produce their final waste of the day and for it to be processed.

We have looked at a sustainable system, including fish food, and to some extent you can capture the part of the vegetables you grow that is not consumed, desiccate it, grind it up and pelletize it. For the most part, you need to live in a climate where you can grow and store fish food by using standard soil planting techniques in order to have enough food for the fish year round. You can also desiccate the leftover fish parts and process it along with the veggies for fish food protein.

As an aside, we purchase palletized fish food in large quantities relative the amount of fish we have, bag it in one gallon zip locks and put it in the chest freezer until we are ready to use it. We do this because left unfrozen, it has a short shelf life.

Vegetables are mainly water. Once desiccated they are mainly carbon, which is sequestered from the CO2 in the air. The fish are the same. The fish food, then, does not make up most of the mass of the fish. The fish waste does not make up most of the mass of the vegetables. So, there is no perpetual motion going on here. It is possible then, to grow enough fish food in the aquaponics system to sustain the process.

Worms may be another alternative for fish food. Others here can chime in on that option.

Fish are sustainable as any fish farmer knows. Plants are sustainable as any tillage farmer knows (unless Monsanto gets involved).

As for sustainable power, I am an advocate of ethanol. You can grow plants that have a high gallons per acre (over 1000 gallons per year) of ethanol. Ethanol can be used for running a generator when the sun is not shinning. Ethanol can be stored for long periods. A century ago, almost every farm had an ethanol still for running farm equipment before Rockefeller backed the suffrage movement in order to stop its production and get petroleum as the only fuel for automobiles through the guise of probation. It is now legal in the US to have a still and the permit is easy to obtain. Ethanol is making a huge comeback in the US and around the world. I'm not talking about the politics of ethanol, but its use as a sustainable fuel. As for the politics of ethanol, there is a large effort on the part of the Petroleum Institute to get people to believe that in it some way makes food prices increase, which is pure propaganda on their part.

Aquaponics has its down side as you have indicated. It should be considered as a part of a greater whole when looking at a total sustainable solution in case of WTSHTF. Or, as the flying nun once said, when the fertilizer hits the ventilator.

Oliver

[urbanfarmer]

I agree. Be creative and you will find the solutions for your specific needs! :-D

[rfeiller]

i personally feel the when and if something does happen, the transition from one form of self sustainability will evolve into the next. i find aquaponics probably is the most difficult to maintain by far. red wigglers/ vermiponics being possibly the easiest because you don't have to purchase nutrients.

i am believing that water will be at a premium so i count in ground out, unless my artesian springs are still flowing at that time of the year.

[chesapeakebaybe]

Ok, I've been doing research, and it seems that I can set up a solar system in my house with battery backup that will provide the power needed to run the pumps/oxygenator... so I'm focused now on building an aquaponics system.

Now I have other questions...

#1: I live in an area with a LOT of critters who like to eat fresh vegetables. I was thinking of setting everything up inside a greenhouse to protect the plants from the critters. Would an aquaponics system work well inside an enclosed greenhouse?

#2: I'm setting this up in Tennessee (on a mountain, so about 10 degrees cooler than the flatlands). What would be a good fish to use if I want to grow year-round?

#3: How much sun and/or shade will I need for optimum plant growth and optimum fish health?

Thanks for your input!
:-)

[urbanfarmer]

Ok, I've been doing research, and it seems that I can set up a solar system in my house with battery backup that will provide the power needed to run the pumps/oxygenator... so I'm focused now on building an aquaponics system.

Now I have other questions...

#1: I live in an area with a LOT of critters who like to eat fresh vegetables. I was thinking of setting everything up inside a greenhouse to protect the plants from the critters. Would an aquaponics system work well inside an enclosed greenhouse?

#2: I'm setting this up in Tennessee (on a mountain, so about 10 degrees cooler than the flatlands). What would be a good fish to use if I want to grow year-round?

#3: How much sun and/or shade will I need for optimum plant growth and optimum fish health?

Thanks for your input!
:-)

1) Eat the critters.

2) Catfish should work. Do some research there are tons of fish species on this beautiful planet and one can suit your needs. Often, the native species are a sure fire bet since they obviously already live there.

3) Depends on the species of plants. There's a huge range in that.

[foodchain]

Defense....hmmm. Here's the problem. I grew up listening to the old people talk about chickens during the depression. They would have 5 chickens, and when they had to leave the property, a small lot. Someone would come and steal one. And cut the wire open to do it letting all the others out. Setting up your own 'compound' to feed your own will work, only as long as you can keep the roving gangs and masses out. As soon as they discover you have something, they will come and take it. Ever see one chicken try and keep a piece of bread from the other 30?

[15mules]

I know this is an old thread, but interesting none the less. I really think in a shtf situation a AP system would create some challenges to keep running, as would anything that relied on electricity. Yes, generators would work fine made from homemade fuel. I think the bigger problem as mentioned already would be security. A person would have a hard time convincing their neighbors they are doing without also, while they could hear the generator chugging away in the background. Just like any survival situation though, the best solution to a problem is not one solution, but many different solutions. I would not rely on only AP to provide all my food. Just as I would not rely on only on weapon to provide my security.

[urbanfarmer]

It can be done, but my immediate suggestion would be to move to a low-density system. This will make the designed system more flexible for a survival situation, but perhaps not the most productive.

[tmcmaster]

This is actually something that has been discussed in my house a LOT. Our thoughts and plans are pretty simple. We plan to use the solar panels to generate enough power to run the pumps/air a few hours each day, and to charge some batteries the rest of the day. The AP system is a 'stop-gap' for us. Something to add extra nutrients to our diets if and when things get really lean, until the soil gardens are producing more, or if some other unforeseen issue arises. But, this is a great thread and can and should open up some deep, thoughtful conversation...

[Roger L.]

I have 2 small solar arrays right now. One powers my garage and one to power the aquaponics. They are not enough to live comfortable but will be enough to sustain when tshtf. I am going to build a small wind turbine that I have found plans for and mount it to the corner of my house where the wind seems to channel itself fairly briskly. I have a gen set but fuel will be an issue. The pioneers found ways, so will us who have the will to survive. Prepare, it's time seems to be getting closer everyday.

[tmcmaster]

I am going to build a small wind turbine that I have found plans for and mount it to the corner of my house where the wind seems to channel itself fairly briskly.

I would advise discretion on that. Solar is quiet, low to the ground, and easy to camouflage in a pinch. A wind turbine is pretty much an open invitation to anyone with nefarious intent, or just really in dire straights...

Just my 2 cents.

[Roger L.]

Yes it could be a flag saying "look at me, I prepared". Good point. I'm still going to build it just for kicks and could wire it and just install at night to charge some batteries.

[tmcmaster]

Yes it could be a flag saying "look at me, I prepared". Good point. I'm still going to build it just for kicks and could wire it and just install at night to charge some batteries.
OpSec is always my first consideration for any mods...

[15mules]

Security is #1, makes no difference what resources you have, if you cannot keep them they will do you no good.
I will relate a short story to illustrate this. Come on guys it is a good story!!!

Anyone remember the Y2K scare?? Everything was going to stop in the year 2000??
My father-in-law drinks coffee every morning with a bunch of other old men down at the restaurant. One man was giving daily reports of what food he was storing in his basement, 55 gallon plastic barrels of beans, rice, water etc. He would constantly ask everyone else what they were planning to do and what they were stocking up on to prepare. Finally after a few weeks, he directly ask one of the other men what he was stocking up on, in the way of food. The man replied, he was not stocking up on any food!! To which the man ask "what are you going to do when all of the stores run out of groceries and you nothing to eat. The man calmly looked over at him and replied " I have guns and lots of ammunition, and I know where all the food is". The first man never gave a report on the food he was stock piling in his basement again after that!!

[urbanfarmer]

Security is #1, makes no difference what resources you have, if you cannot keep them they will do you no good.
I will relate a short story to illustrate this. Come on guys it is a good story!!!

Anyone remember the Y2K scare?? Everything was going to stop in the year 2000??
My father-in-law drinks coffee every morning with a bunch of other old men down at the restaurant. One man was giving daily reports of what food he was storing in his basement, 55 gallon plastic barrels of beans, rice, water etc. He would constantly ask everyone else what they were planning to do and what they were stocking up on to prepare. Finally after a few weeks, he directly ask one of the other men what he was stocking up on, in the way of food. The man replied, he was not stocking up on any food!! To which the man ask "what are you going to do when all of the stores run out of groceries and you nothing to eat. The man calmly looked over at him and replied " I have guns and lots of ammunition, and I know where all the food is". The first man never gave a report on the food he was stock piling in his basement again after that!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I prefer the Johny Appleseed approach. For years, whenever I go fishing/huntin/hiking I plant a few seeds of edible crops. I really don't do this often, but I don't have to. Some survive, some don't, but over the years hidden food gardens have begun to grow wild throughout my area. I visit these areas with very little frequency, but when I do I see the strange leafs out of place with the native vegetation. Knowledge, you see, if properly wielded, is more powerful than guns or ammo. That man's wife with all the guns... purdy sure she's not worried about the food either. :twisted:

[15mules]

Good idea with the fruit trees. I feel pretty lucky to live where I do, there are lots of natural resources and many edibles that grow wild here as well. My mules allow me to access places many just cannot get to, in search of these things also.

[Aloha Don]

down-size the system to meet your immediate needs as well as makes it more mobile and easier to conceal and defend.
Use solar panels with deep cycle batteries to to run your pumps.
Use small wind turbine to either charge batteries at night or to directly pump air into the system.
For food....larvae, worms, old veggies and duckweed should supplement
for water....WSHTF...that will be a very expensive and sought after commodity....
Rain catchment and/or wells will have to supply drinking water and tank replenishment.
You would have to really minimize the evaporation from GB and FT.
Great thread to make you think....

[15mules]

Good ideas, I really like the kinds of discussions. I am not convinced the world will end tomorrow, but I really figure the more self sufficient we are, the more economically we can live, which means less time working and more time doing things we want to do. If we like to live simply with less THINGS, well that just makes it all the better.

[Roger L.]

I'm not a gloom and doom world ending radical but I do see signs of a drastic change in the American lifestyle within what is left of my lifetime. With the condition of our economy, career politicians building an ever increasing wasteful system, corruption in the money markets (not just banks) and the plethora of other major crisis we have due to greed and ignorance, something just has to give. We will end up like Greece and go bankrupt and the world will have a much different, harsher look about it. I have some defense, I have some preparations, I am learning more about how things were done in those simpler times a century ago. Will it be devastating if I never need these things? HELL NO! But it could mean it may not be as hard as it could have been if needed.

I like to think I'm a nice guy, willing to befriend and help those I am friends with. Family comes first and foremost and then the friends. The rest I say live and let live and judge not lest ye be judged. If/when the time comes the best we can all do is our best and to remain honorable.

[15mules]

I agree with you 100%. There is no shame in being prepared. If some want to think negatively of us who are making plans "Just in case" then so be it, I have no problem with that. My issue has always been with those who sit around talking about how little the next generation knows, while doing nothing to teach them or show them. But that is another discussion all in itself, maybe I should start a new thread for that, to not interrupt this one.

[JCO]

You want scary? What if an EMP hit the East coast of the US...how long do you think it would be before the city slickers in NY City, Philly and some of the other large cities there would be eating each other, not to mention the rapes, robberies and just out and out murder for not apparent reason other than just because they could get away with it. :shock: :o :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

It's funny how there is no talk from the government agencies, ie; DHS, DOJ, DOD ETC. EMP could be as devastating as any of the hydrogen bombs in existence. The only difference is the killing becomes a by product rather than a direct cause. The greatest terrorist threat is poison in the water supply. Unseen until to many are sick and dying and to hard to get back out of a contaminated system. Oh, I'd better be quiet, I've been drinking the koolaid again. Look out, there are ruffled feathers coming!

[15mules]

Ruffled feathers??? Fish don't have feathers?
I remember when I used to drive truck and haul produce, I was told NYC operated on a 3 day food supply. Stop the supply coming in and in 3 days the stores would be empty. With the increasing population, it may be a bit less now. Most of the major cities are on an equally short food supply.
During the great depression, people in the cities were standing in soup lines. The people in the rural areas had nothing in the way of THINGS, but they were still able to eat. The population unable to feed itself has grown dramatically since that time I am certain.

[Roger L.]

I have heard the 3 day period also, but let there be a forecast of some snow around here and there will be no bread or milk in a matter of hours. Let there be a natural or man made disaster and I believe all food stocks will go as fast.

[15mules]

Roger you are absolutely right. The same thing happens here every time they predict a big snow storm coming in. People are lined up at the gas pumps trying to fill up there cars and like you said, bread and milk are gone quick. I have a freight liner farm truck with 125gal. tanks on each side, I keep it full most of the time. I figure I could siphon out of it for a while to run my pickup. Our big problem is the ice storms come through and knock all the power lines down, we are quite often without power at least once or twice for several days in the winter.

[Roger L.]

I have 3 Cadillacs and a pickup truck and a generator, limb chipper and lawn mower in the garage. At any time I have 100 gallons of gas available to me so I stay stocked up for the just in case. No kids here so no need for a lot of milk and I'm not a bread lover. My pantry stays stocked so I'll leave the worrying to the amateurs and throw another log on the fire.

[15mules]

Speaking of Generators, around here those whole home natural gas generators seem to be installed more and more. I have a few small portable generators, but not a big one. The problem I have always seen with generators is they do not get used much, then when you need them, the engine has been sitting and is sometimes hard to start, etc. I have been looking at a PTO driven generator to use with my tractor. One of those things I have been putting of buying. I will probably get one before winter. My tractor is used several times a week to feed with. I know it will start and run with no issues, and the PTO generators are relatively inexpensive, because you are not buying an engine, just a generator.

[JCO]

You like innovation???? Build your you own huge generator.....buy a junk/wrecked car with an engine in decent shape with power to the rear/front (whichever drives), jack it up, take a wheel off, take the tire off, put the rim back on, wrap on a flat sawmill belt and put that to your pulley on your huge generator and you have all the power you need idling in low gear/drive for a small fuel use. 8-)

Any other problems (besides with women) just ask:-

"MR. FIXIT HERE" Military trained to survive regardless of where or when...and since that guy was bragging about his stored food goods, I know what's supper..! :shock: :o :lol: :mrgreen:

[keith_r]

build a wood gasifier so that you don't have to rely on gasoline.. (as long as you can get firewood!)
you can use this to power any number of generators...
heck, you can even build wood a gasifier for the tractor
i'm not knocking the koolaid drinkers.. i've been known to drink a cup or two of "bug juice"
but seriously..we've seen some huge natural disasters, society recovers and rolls on.. everyone should "be prepared" as an individual, but society should be prepared as well.. i haven't completely lost faith in humanity!

[Roger L.]

After looking at gasifiers I think it's a lot simpler to build a hydrogen generator and run things on water and just a little fuel. A few years ago I built a very small version just to see how it worked and you can make a pretty good bang by filling a sandwich bag full of the gas and then lighting it on fire. You don't want to be real close or you may lose your eyebrows. Neighbors tend to get angry about the loud sound too!

[15mules]

Bio-Digesters to capture methane from animal waste is also picking up speed as a viable fuel source.

[JCO]

I know very little about gasifiers but maybe we could figure out how to run something on beans :shock: :mrgreen:

[15mules]

Back when I was driving truck. we would haul these big plastic tarps to the pig farms. They would direct all of the waste from cleaning the pig pens into ponds maybe 2' or 3' deep. They had big rubber balls about 3' around anchored in a grid fashion all over the pond. They would spread the tarp over the rubber balls and seal the edges to the ground. They would then suck the methane gas from under the tarp as the pig s**T fermented. They had what appeared to be propane tanks, and they would pump the methane gas into the tanks and pressurize the tank. They would then use the methane gas, as you would any other gas, both for generator use and to burn to heat the pig houses in the winter.
I remember one time I was waiting to unload, the Mexicans they had putting all of the balls and piping in were using Hip waders to work out in the already full ponds. One tried to lean over to get something, and leaned a little too far. The top of his waders went under the water and they quickly filled up, pulling him over. He was able to pull his suspenders off and get out of the waders. Otherwise, I guess the poor soul would have drowned in the s**T.

[Roger L.]

Didn't need to even hit the fan!

[15mules]

Nope, No fan needed.

Funny thing is Tyson was putting in these huge pig grow out sheds up in North Dakota. They had made some deal with the Indian tribes up there, some joint venture deal. They thought since it was on reservation land they could get around some of the EPA regulations. Well, we hauled supplies and equipment to them all one summer and they just kept building more and more hog houses.
Heard later, the EPA came in and shut them all down, seems they still had jurisdiction somehow, even on reservation land.

[JCO]

Native Americans are America's only 2nd class citizens regardless of what Reverends Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson & Rep Charlie Rangel and the others say. :(

[Roger L.]

They of all people should be revered because truly we took this land way mostly by force. There was some purchasing of free will early on but it was not a "purchase of the land" but a monetary agreement to share the land, as most native Americans felt land could not be owned.

[Waterboy]

Great thread!! I just for now, have food assurance MREs under my bed, and lots of water, guns and ammo. Aquaponics may work if we start taking shifts pumping water with hand pump to grow beds. Aeration will be low, but will have some when they drain. We could eat most of the fish to bring down the ratio!! I am still trying to come up with a better plan, very limited living in a subdivion.
I will put the kids to work pumping that hand pump like they did in the old days, they will need something to do without xbox.

[JCO]

Better than a hand pump would be some storage batteries and a bicycle rigged with an high output auto alternator. I knew a man years ago that did that and told his 4 teenage daughters if they wanted to watch TV, they had to charge the batteries or do without. Those girls had the most beautiful legs you ever saw and they knew what was happening on all the soaps. True story :mrgreen:

[JCO]

MREs...make my teeth hurt just to think about them :mrgreen:

[Roger L.]

2 55 gallon drums on a screw type motorcycle lift and an overflow tube. Lift one barrel up with an orifice built in to flow down into the grow bed. The overflow piped over to the second drum. When one drum is empty lower the lift, roll on the full barrel, raise it up and repeat. You could orifice the drums to increase or decrease the time. Ok everyone, go out and buy a motorcycle lift before they're all sold out. LOL. :lol: ;)