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Thread: Sizing systems

  1. #21
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    Re: Sizing systems

    http://www.aces.edu/dept/fisheries/aqua ... /462fs.pdf

    Good reading on benefits of salt. Can help a system, especially early on when nitrite spikes are likely, or when adjusting populations.

    I will without doubt still do water changes out of habit on my AP system, though less frequently. I would think 10% weekly would be a good idea just to keep up water quality.

  2. #22
    Moderator davidstcldfl's Avatar
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    Re: Sizing systems

    I went searching and found some 'random info' on salt.....

    -DON'T use table salt....iodine and anti-clumping agents are not good.
    -1 lb per 125 gals = 1 ppt
    -1 ppt (part per thousand) is very common, up to 3 ppt.
    -1 ppt 'does' help with nitrate spikes. * see Brier's post above, he must of added that while I was off reading..
    -strawberries 'are' the most sensitive to salt...read 1 or 2 people, growing with 1 ppt...most say use 'no' salt for strawberries.
    -plants will 'use up' the salt...someone mentioned spinach sucks it up...tomatoes like some too.
    -adds trace minnerals
    -using a Salinity Refractometer is 'one way' to measure salt....they said one can be picked up on Ebay, for not too much. Look for one that reads in 'ppt'
    -helps with the slime coat on fish
    -helps fight some fish diseases (sorry, I didn't write down which ones )
    -depends on your fish, as to how much salt they can benifit from...
    catfish needs to have a low ppt (1-2 ppt)...where as tilapia, can go (much) higher.
    "Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same." - President Ronald Reagan

  3. #23
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    Re: Sizing systems

    I use kosher salt. Nothing but salt. Many guys use stock salt from farm supply stores. My Tilapia in the house are kept at 6 parts per thousand. I have always used it, especially when fish are stressed, or when transporting them. Personally I think it is a great prophylactic treatment. So it sounds like I can still get away with using small amounts. Thanks guys.

  4. #24
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    Re: Sizing systems

    I do know the chemical differences, thought that if a fish is stressed knowing aboutl Epsom salt could be of benefit to someone. Because an animal can tolerate something and even sensitive rainwater fish an tolerate.

  5. #25
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    Re: Sizing systems

    Droid phone limitations
    tolerating something doesn't mean it is a benefit. Much of the info today goes back to the dark ages of fishkeeping. There are better ways.
    rich

  6. #26
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    Re: Sizing systems

    Rfeiller, what is your common practice of water change? I am sure that there is a happy medium between keeping fish healthy, and happy, and being economical when it comes to water usage. In most of the aquaculture industry, I would venture to say that water is 80-90% recirculated. At least in recirculating systems. Flow through is a different animal. You are correct about hormone buildup (hence the old adage that a fish will only grow as large as it's tank allows), and also nitrate buildup. Both will stunt growth. Now with AP, nitrate should be a non issue if done properly. As far as hormone removal, if you are concerned, then obviously you will need to do regular water changes. Small frequent water changes will keep nitrate levels in check in recirculating systems. How much dilution is required to reduce hormones to a level that they become a non issue, I am not sure. I am not aware of any studies, but surely some have been done.

    I would assume that 90% recirculation is removing enough of the hormones, as many of these aquaculture facilities are realizing fantastic growth.

    Found this about koi. Sure you have read it.https://koistuff.com/shoppingcart/pages ... rowth.html

  7. #27
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    Re: Sizing systems

    brier,
    my question was where is the ratio that would be the closest to the best of both worlds.

    aquaculture/aquaponics (the efluent produces aldae and vegatation that aids in the "purification process" runs the gambit from a total open system such as is practiced in third world countries for processing sewege with the talipia being in the final ponds with the effluent going out for use by people. to the other extreme of total recirculation utilitzing dehumidifiers to remove the excess humitity in the air and returing it to the aquaponics system counting on the nitrification beds for the conversion from ammonia to nitrites to nitrates and counting on the fish to remove the nitrates. of course some de-nitrification transpires in the nitrifying bed as an anarobic process.

    i would never without the use of nano filtration, GAC, resins, RO, ozone and uv ever have a total closed system, however i am looking for a place that i can feel satified with the results knowing that both ends of the process are a compromise, but acceptable.

    the effluent from the system goes to watering the container and yard plants.
    i am hoping for a target to base the system on knowing that there is a lot of trial and error.

    Brier, as far as water changes it is a minimum of 10% per day for the koi set up i have now of 2500gals. the koi pond system under construction and will be finished in the spring is 20,000 gals.

    sure appreciate the help

    rich

  8. #28
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    Re: Sizing systems

    by the way Brier, that was a good article, thanks for the link. i started working with ornatmental fish in the 60's while in my teens. these conclusions were drawn over 40 years ago, when the common practice was "aged" water in the aquariums. this aged tank conditions are what created so much of the information today about water changes, rust, iodine and so much more. maybe that is why i was breeding Discus when the publications said it was near impossible to keep them alive much less get them to breed.
    immune system and fertility problems, not to mention the health of the animals that are being produced.
    by the way this is fun, take a couple of tilipia m. and teach them to go through mazes and ring bells for their food, they are quite intelligent fish, at least the wild caught ones were. i played with a couple of them in 1972. they are a kick.


    take care

    Rich

  9. #29
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    Re: Sizing systems

    Rich, for me most of 72 was a blur. Actually, that very year I was hitching a ride in my mom's belly. I wish I could answer your question, but you already know the answer. Frequent water changes are undoubtedly better for your stock. When I was raising lots of fish in aquariums, I had many of my tanks rigged with overflows, and I trickled straight tap water into them. It was such a small amount, only 5-10% per day, that I didn't even worry about dechlorination. These were my healthiest tanks.

    I really think you will need to experiment with this to find out what is optimal. But with 20,000 gallons, I suspect you need to find the bottom range of optimal, for the sake of your pocket book. I am really interested in hearing what you come up with, and I will keep my eyes peeled for any info that might be of interest to you.
    Matt

  10. #30
    Moderator urbanfarmer's Avatar
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    Re: Sizing systems

    Some fish cannot tolerate any salt. Some breeds of Tilapia can tolerate seawater concentration levels of salt (roughly 35 ppt). Most Tilapia can survive brackish waters if they are slowly acclimated to the salinity (I have read studies of up to 20 ppt for nile and blue Tilapia if I recall correctly with a low mortality rate).

    The reason salt helps with nitrite spikes is because the Cl- or Chlorine ions helps offset an imbalance caused by nitrite ions and the diffusion of ions through the gills of fish for their metabolic pathways. Nitrite spikes can cause brown blood disease or something like that... I forget now, but I think I was reading a SRAC article or something late one night...

    As far as what rfeiller has mentioned... I know that some fish release growth inhibiting hormones into the water. As the concentration increases (because of the lack of water changes) the fish tend to stop growing and eventually die. In my days researching Tilapia, I have NEVER come across a fact that states Tilapia produce this kind of hormone. Where I have mainly seen this problem cited in studies, it has done with home aquariums and indoor aquaculture with recirculating systems. Why? Probably because a hormone or protein released into the WATER is easily broken down by the UV rays from the sun (or even better a UV clarifier), obviously, since it no longer belongs to a living organism that might aid in its repair or reconstruction... so, with those 2 things said, I doubt anyone, anywhere, would ever need to do "water changes" to prevent stunted fish growth... If you find some studies or references to the contrary, I implore you to post them! Thanks.

    P.S. Can you post on the economic feasibility of raising Koi for profit? I am trying to figure out what route to go as far as making a few bucks on the side with my soon-to-be large backyard aquaponic system!

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